Medical & Safety Research

[ysb33r]

I'm starting this thread to keep track of research that involves skiboarding in some form of another. It would be great if someone can pin this.

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[ysb33r]

Myths Concerning Alpine Skiing Injuries

Robert J. Johnson, MD, Carl F. Ettlinger, MS, and Jasper E. Shealy, PhD


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...4/#!po=48.2456

This is a really interesting read especially this section: Myth 6 - The shorter the ski, the less the torque applied to the leg in a fall—that is, very short skis do not need release bindings

This makes the argument that non-release bindings should be avoided at all costs, because it increases the risk of ankle and tibial injuries.

It does not however, place this into context that injury count is still lower in skiboards %-wise

To be fair it does point out that ACL injuries are more uncommon in skiboards than in long skis due to short tail length.

Overall the point made is that if you use non-release bindings you have to be aware of the risk.

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[ysb33r]

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/bjsports/36/2/135.full.pdf - Mike Langram

This is one of the most cited papers. Based upon 3yrs in Scotland at the start of the millenium, it showed that skiboard-related injuries are low %-wise. A lot of the data was based upon typical 99cm, fixed bindings of the time.

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[ysb33r]

Accidentologie des sports d’hiver Dossier de Presse 2010 - https://www.irbms.com/download/docum...port-hiver.pdf

This refers to miniskis, (although is a separate presentation they used skiboards). It shows that injureies in skiboarding is small, but they don;t recommend it to children 15yrs or younger. I suspect there research was mostly looking at non-release bindings, but it is not clear.

[ysb33r]

Technical possibilities for optimising the ski-binding-boot functional unit to reduce knee injuries in recreational alpine skiing
https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._alpine_skiing
December 2013. Veit Senner, Frank Ingo Michel, Stefan Lehner, Othmar Brügger

This covers ski design, bindings and transimission of forces to the human body. It is an extensive piece of work (200+ pages), but worth readin if you are into technology itself.

[ysb33r]

Biomechanics of carving skis

https://ssms.ch/fileadmin/user_uploa..._Greenwald.pdf
Rick Greenwald, Veit Senner, Steve Swanson. 2001.

This makes an interesting comparison between skiboards and normal carving skis. It also looks at ways how releases happened from release bindings. It comes to an interesting conclusion in that

"an experienced skier but novice skiboarder who is likely to ski with the same type of mechanics used with his conventional skis is exposed to different risks. As the simulation showed, this might lead to falls on skiboards that would not have likely occurred with a traditional length ski."

Forward release mechanisms have improved in release bindings in subsequent years and I personally have seen safe heel releases in both the Attack and Ambition bindings from Tyrolia.

[ysb33r]

All you ever wanted to know about ACL injuries and ski bindings

https://www.newschoolers.com/news/re...s-ski-bindings

Bad Wolf pointed me at this article. It is well written and backed up by proper references.

[ysb33r]

Alpine Touring Equipment: Retention and Release in the Backcountry

This is really interesting as it is very recent Ph.D research by Jeff Campbell.

[jjue]

Alpine Touring Equipment: Retention and Release in the Backcountry

This is really interesting as it is very recent Ph.D research by Jeff Campbell.

Thank you for posting this. I think this is really important to watch for any folks contemplating using Alpine Touring boots (vibram soled boots without a plastic afd pad) for skiing or skiboarding.
I love the walkability and comfort of using Alpine touring boots but this new information about how safe they are even in bindings sold to use with them (ie all frame AT bindings , and also new Tyrolia AT resort binding) is really an eye opener . Not as safe as you think ! On the other hand the idea of using AT pin bindings with these boots especially at the resort can also be dangerous. See this video starting at 44.20 into the podcast .

Currently I am skiing exclusively with an Alpine Touring boot with a vibram sole but mostly am skiing it with non release skiboard bindings on boards 110 and below , so I am not depending on the boot binding release characteristics. .I think if I am going to use my longer Spruce boards or long skis that have frame AT bindings or Spruce risers I will use a a standard downhill skiboot rather than a full vibram soled boot. The new gripwalk soles do provide a lot of the walkability of Alpine Touring boots but have a plastic pad embedded in the sole and heel that allow standard alpine binding release with gripwalk compatible bindings eg spruce pro prime plus binding sold here on SBOL.

[jjue]

Myths Concerning Alpine Skiing Injuries

Robert J. Johnson, MD, Carl F. Ettlinger, MS, and Jasper E. Shealy, PhD


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...4/#!po=48.2456

This is a really interesting read especially this section: Myth 6 - The shorter the ski, the less the torque applied to the leg in a fall—that is, very short skis do not need release bindings

This makes the argumeI nt that non-release bindings should be avoided at all costs, because it increases the risk of ankle and tibial injuries.

It does not however, place this into context that injury count is still lower in skiboards %-wise

To be fair it does point out that ACL injuries are more uncommon in skiboards than in long skis due to short tail length.

Overall the point made is that if you use non-release bindings you have to be aware of the risk.

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This is interesting article . I do think that one factor that has not been brought up in this article and has been discussed amongst skibaorders is the effect of experienced riders in risk of injury on skiboards vs long skis. I do notice this effect myself. As I have become very comfortable riding non release bindings on skiboards 110 and below , I find that in lots of falls I can tuck and roll or get my skiboards out of the snow in a fall , This is a lot less likely to happen if I fall with a longer ski that is more likely to get more firmly trapped . If you watch the RVL8 pro riders for example who all ride with non releasers often at very high speeds , they can take some pretty good falls and are able to kind of roll out and get the shorter skis unstuck or not crossed etc compared to a similar type fall with a long ski no matter how experienced the rider.

[ysb33r]

This is interesting article . I do think that one factor that has not been brought up in this article and has been discussed amongst skibaorders is the effect of experienced riders in risk of injury on skiboards vs long skis. I do notice this effect myself. As I have become very comfortable riding non release bindings on skiboards 110 and below , I find that in lots of falls I can tuck and roll or get my skiboards out of the snow in a fall , This is a lot less likely to happen if I fall with a longer ski that is more likely to get more firmly trapped . If you watch the pro riders for example who all ride with non releasers often at very high speeds , they can take some pretty good falls and are able to kind of roll out and get the shorter skis unstuck or not crossed etc compared to a similar type fall with a long ski no matter how experienced the rider.

Absolutely true, Jack. I always use the comparison to boot crampons. You are taught to always keep your feet off the slope when you fall with crampons on, otherwise you'll cartwheel and probably injure yourself. You rely on your ice axe to stop.

Same thing here is that you keep you boards up until you are in a position to lower the edges safely into the slope to stop you. (If you have not stopped already).

[ysb33r]

Thank you for posting this. I think this is really important to watch for any folks contemplating using Alpine Touring boots (vibram soled boots without a plastic afd pad) for skiing or skiboarding.
I love the walkability and comfort of using Alpine touring boots but this new information about how safe they are even in bindings sold to use with them (ie all frame AT bindings , and also new Tyrolia AT resort binding) is really an eye opener . Not as safe as you think ! On the other hand the idea of using AT pin bindings with these boots especially at the resort can also be dangerous. See this video starting at 44.20 into the podcast .

Currently I am skiing exclusively with an Alpine Touring boot with a vibram sole but mostly am skiing it with non release skiboard bindings on boards 110 and below , so I am not depending on the boot binding release characteristics. .I think if I am going to use my longer Spruce boards or long skis that have frame AT bindings or Spruce risers I will use a a standard downhill skiboot rather than a full vibram soled boot. The new gripwalk soles do provide a lot of the walkability of Alpine Touring boots but have a plastic pad embedded in the sole and heel that allow standard alpine binding release with gripwalk compatible bindings eg spruce pro prime plus binding sold here on SBOL.

It had me thinking as well. The Ambition bindings are suppose to work with both. Mine have released with my Scott Cosmos boots. I am wondering whether Campbell's test set included that combination. It would be good to get hold of the actual thesis.

I also wonder in the interview that you posted whether the in-resort skiing also applies to the Salomon Shift MNC, which gets a mention. I actually have skiing buddy who does exactly that.

[jjue]

It had me thinking as well. The Ambition bindings are suppose to work with both. Mine have released with my Scott Cosmos boots. I am wondering whether Campbell's test set included that combination. It would be good to get hold of the actual thesis.

I also wonder in the interview that you posted whether the in-resort skiing also applies to the Salomon Shift MNC, which gets a mention. I actually have skiing buddy who does exactly that.

I think the Scott Cosmos like my Dynafit CR radical have a full vibram sole . The Ambition is a frame binding with the type of Alpine toe that Campbell is talking about. I also have over the years released with full vibram sole boots in frame AT bindings , so I think the issue is not so much they never release but the release characteristics are less dependable then with a boot that has a plastic insert in the toe and the heel . I have always tested my AT frame bindings and AT vibram soled boot by kicking the boot from the side . They all release just like my Downhill boots. I think the issue he is bringing up is that even ski shop torque tests may not really simulate a slow twisting long axis torque like he did with his special testing equipment. My take away from Campbell's research is that while I probably will release from my frame AT bindings with my Vibram soled AT boot in a sharp side blow type of force , i may not release if in a slow twisting torqueing type fall in soft snow as well as I would release with a sole with a plastic insert. The instructions with the Ambition and other frame binding is to leave a gap of a few mm between the bottom of your AT boot and the top of the AFD pad . The problem is that if I try to do this with my AT boots I often can't get the toe tight enough that there is some unwanted give in the toe , and when I tighten enough to prevent rocking in the toe often the Vibram sole is right on the AFD pad which would lead to friction in a release.
Earlier in the video I posted Cody Townsend talks about the Salomon Shift binding . He was actually one of the developers and is a strong proponent of that binding and promotes that binding as solving the issue with inconsistent release with pin toes. . The issue which is not discussed is that if that binding is used with a full Vibram soled AT boot , when you lock down into the Alpine type toe for the downhill you will have exactly the same issue that Campbell is discussing with AT boots in frame bindings and does not address that issue at all.
The best boot I think to use with the Salomon Shift binding for full advantage of all safety components of that binding as well as the pin up hill mode would be be a AT boot with a grip walk sole and tech inserts. My son has just such a boot which is Dabello Lupo with grip walk sole. He uses that boot with AT frame bindings as well as pin bindings and it provides I think the best safety across both systems. I will post a picture of the sole of his boot in my next post.

[jjue]

Dalbello lupo AT boot with gripwalk sole

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[jjue]

In looking at all this information about the boot and binding interface for AT bindings I think the Fritschi Tecton 12 is probably the best binding from a skiing downhill connection prowness associated with safety release for full vibram soled AT boots. This is primarily because of the unique pin toe which incorporates a means to insure lateral elasticity and a way for the boot to release the binding in a foward fall as well .

If you have a grip walk AT boot with toe inserts, the same Fritschi binding , or Salomon Shift , Duke PT would allow pins to be used for the uphill with the optimum safety release for downhill. A frame binding, with a grip walk sole boot, or regular downhill boot, would provide excellent release safety and good downhill control but not the freedom of using pins for uphill.
To use these bindings for skiboards we would have to engineer some sort of riser for Spruce or RVL8 boards or just drill them into Summit boards. Personally , I have begun to really enjoy the use of the tech binding toe , and full vibram soled AT boot , on my skiboards and just accept a non release tech set up and use on 110 cm RVL8 skiboards and below as a compromise that for me balances safety , ease of use ,simplicity and lightweight for my backcountry missions .The advantage for me of a riser based solution provides me the option of using my whole quiver of skiboards with the same backcountry binding set up depending on the snow conditions., easily switching the bindings between boards. I am very used to using non release bindings on the 110 and below boards anyways and am willing to give up safety release on these boards.
I can vary between Rockered Condor , regular Condor, Spliffs, Blunt xls, or DLPs all based on conditions .
I use a custom non release skiboard binding set up based on the RVL8 receptor base plate.
https://forums.skiboardsonline.com/f...d-tech-binding