transferring skills

[cyborg]

Hi all,

I've been lurking for awhile, and finally decided to post. I'm from Florida, but now go to school in Va and got a set of KTPs and boots after talking to Greco about getting a set up that would suit me as an advanced level inliner on skiboards fo the first time (only on snow for the second....) for backcountry shredding and the occasional ski slope/terrain park.

Yesterday I got my first full day at a resort in, and I'm left with some frustration in getting a few things down. Hopefully I can get some advice.

First off, I'm having trouble spinning more than 180. I got plenty comfortable hitting 180s off boxes, jumps, on flat, and off snow ledges. I can roll in fakey off drops and over any surface, and am very comfortable going through the trees (I was able to do some backcountry down mountain bike trails and powerlines last week) and over logs and such through deep powder; so I have the balance point figured out, not surprisingly since the whole reason I chose skiboard was since its nearly the same as inlines. However, perhaps because my unfamiliarity with snow and/or the length of skibaords compared to skate, I can't seem to get a real spin in. I tried carving hard into jumps, which seemed to only scrub speed and put me at a right angle. When I tried throwing my weight into it, the boards didn't want to move all the way around.

So what is the technique? Can anyone explain it in terms of what is different from skating? Normally, for a spin 360 and greater, I would boost off the jump, and start the spin before my feet leave the ground, throwing my weight into the spin. On snow, the power transfer is quite different than concrete or even dirt, which leaves this technique making me look like a moron as I flail through the air, my top half trying to spin and my bottom doing little of anything but getting airborne entirely off balance.

Also, rails were a bit of a surprise. The ease of sliding put me on my butt the first (and overly confident) try. When hitting a rail, especially a metal one, on skiboards, do you stagger your feet at opposing angles, so you can control your lean to the front and back? or do you just try to stay centered on top? Should your stance be wide or more together?

Thanks in advance for the advice! So far I'm having a great time on my boards, and will be trying to get my edges into every flake of the little backcountry powder we get here in the blue ridge/alleghany area

[kirk]

This is my area of expertise. I grew up rollerblading, then jumped on skiboards when they first came out, so I'm pretty familiar w/ this transition.

Jumping on skiboards is a bit different than skates due to the weight combined with that you can't flex your ankles to jump. Because of this, you can't generate the same upward force like you will on skates. You have to rely on the jump to generate most of your height.

That said, how big is the jump that you are trying, lip to lip? Although 360s can be hucked around on tiny jumps, learning on a tiny jump is very different than a real jump. If it is less than 10' from takeoff to landing, it is really too small to learn correctly, and I would recommend finding a larger jump. Something in the 15'-20' range would be a good size to learn 360s on.

Now, assuming you have a jump like this, the first thing to do is to make that you can clear it to the landing comfortably. You need to be able to make it not just to the landing knuckle, but comfortably into the transition. The reason for this is that you loose a little bit of speed when you initiate the spin, so you need to make sure that you will still make it to the landing.

Next, don't think about a 180. A 180 is just jumping and twisting your feet, and it does not feel similar to a 360 on skiboards at all. You have to get a new mental picture in your head. Think about the arc of your jump. When you are at your apex, you want to be up in the air with half of the spin completed, looking back at the lip of the jump. Picture your self jumping from forward to this point. You will take off with legs in a slightly wide stance and jump as hard as you can. Your legs will generate the force to get your core to start spinning, not your arms. Throwing your arms will send you off axis, so resist the urge to do this.

After jumping as hard as you can and starting to spin, you will bring your feet up and grab. This not only makes you spin faster, but gives you something to focus on. Look where you are grabbing, as this gives you a sense of direction. So now you have jumped hard, started spinning your core, brought your feet up to grab, and are now looking down back at the lip of the jump as you hit the apex. Envision this.

Assuming you did this, now the rest is just unwinding. Keep looking in the direction you are spinning, while releasing the grab, and extending your legs for the landing. This should be all one smooth motion, and is the exact opposite from what you did the the take off. Really by this point, your fate is sealed. If you jumped correctly, you will naturally just float the second half, but if you threw your arms, you will have had an unsustainable initial force that will just send you flying out of control.

Once you have the picture in your head, you are ready to go! After you do a few, you will find that it is much easier on bigger jumps, as you have a lot more time. Once you have 360s down, bigger spins follow the same pattern, you just jump harder and hold the grab longer.


rails will be part 2...

[Greco]

Can you tell he went to school to be a teacher ?! Great post Kirk.

[cyborg]

Thanks kirk!

I was just at Winterplace Resort in WV, which is very small, with no real jumps (but an hour away from my dorm). I was trying to learn on a ~5 ft kicker that was more or less a product of the snow cat pushing snow and a few snowbaorders hitting packing it down. I had to sculpt the lip myself... obviously this is inadequate. On skates, I have always felt that relying solely on throwing your arms is a bit of a newb way to spin; to get a stable 360 or 540 in, I mostly rely on driving with my feet. However, due to the ankle lock, I can tell it's quite different on skiboards. I will wait until I go somewhere with some real jumps.

How would you spin off of a flat (e.g. a rock drop you find backcountry or a fun box)? The same way? Also, just to clarify, you are saying that you initiate the spin with your legs before you take off? Or do you boost, then twist from your core once in the air?

We had a warm day today and I hopped on my inlines, and was skating smoother than usual. I'm happy that the skiboards not only didn't throw me off, but actually seem to be good cross training!

Thanks again

[Davelynam]

holy smokes kirk... can you explain the process in doing doubles with my eyes closed

[Dave Bloom]

Something I want to add onto what Kirk explained.

The type of snow the jump is made out of (icy, soft due to warmth, or typical high elevation packed powder) make a huge difference in how you can approach the jumps and use them to your advantage. On snow here in Colorado the jumps allow for more of a carve when riding into them, which in turn allows you to create the feeling of beginning your rotation through a carve as you go up the jump. On icier jumps in coastal areas you will have to use more of the pop when you spin at the point of takeoff. In early season or spring conditions you tend to get softer snow due to the warmth, and while that seems to allow you the same approach as a Colorado-style jump you will need to be careful in the awareness of how the jump is feeling in order to successfully spin without catching an edge.

[zapmeister64]

Nice thread. I'll have to try that Kirk.

[cyborg]

Something I want to add onto what Kirk explained.

The type of snow the jump is made out of (icy, soft due to warmth, or typical high elevation packed powder) make a huge difference in how you can approach the jumps and use them to your advantage. On snow here in Colorado the jumps allow for more of a carve when riding into them, which in turn allows you to create the feeling of beginning your rotation through a carve as you go up the jump. On icier jumps in coastal areas you will have to use more of the pop when you spin at the point of takeoff. In early season or spring conditions you tend to get softer snow due to the warmth, and while that seems to allow you the same approach as a Colorado-style jump you will need to be careful in the awareness of how the jump is feeling in order to successfully spin without catching an edge.

I hadn't thought of that (like I said, snow is, sadly, relatively new to me) being such a big part of the equation, but now that you point it out, I think that was a lot of my problem. I was catching my edges really badly on the little icy kicker I found, but in unridden powder, carving 180s off short ledges was so easy, I felt like a full 360 would be pretty easy with a bit more height. I was frustrated when it seems harder off of the kicker. I guess they were totally different surfaces, and I was throwing improper technique at them, so nothing really worked .

Thanks again guys

[cyborg]

I've been meaning to update this for awhile, just been extremely busy with school, and trying to spend my free time away from my computer.

I went to Liberty Snowflex Center twice past two weeks, and really think I got flat spins down - well, at least how to initiate them on skiboards. I still bust my ass doing them off kickers, since I'm not landing quite stable enough.

Hopefully this can help someone else, but what I found is that I was really messing up by trying to jump like I would on skates, especially since most of my spins on skates are off flat or slightly angled surfaces (meaning I create my height, not a ramp). Jumping like that really destabilized you in ski boots, since your ankles don't flex, so you just end up angling yourself back and sideways in the air.

I figured this out by hitting the larger kickers, and having my skier friend tell me "Chris, you're not on skates. Stop trying to jump and just let the ramp do the work." I realized that if you just provide torque from your core, starting around the time the front of your bindings are at the lip, a smooth spin just... happens. After that, I was like, woah this is easy, I can probably spin 540s and more much more comfortably than on inlines. In terms of boosting off of the jumps, I found it to be much more similar to what you do on a bike, which is just a weighting/unweighting motion, instead of a "jump".

This might belong in another thread (snowflex thread? is there one?), but the hardest thing for me that I encountered was actually the snowflex surface itself. I think a lot of it had to do with the width of my KTPs, especially considering how short they are in comparison to skis. I was having trouble getting a lot of speed, because as I changed angles (e.g. coming into the bottom of a kicker), the snowflex would sometimes abruptly catch my edge, which slowed me down. It felt a lot like catching a rut or hitting a parallel crack when you are on wheels on a dirt or concrete surface. I actually couldn't reliably clear the landings on the bigger jumps until my second visit, when I finally figured out how to finesse the snowflex and keep my edges from catching, so I could get plenty of speed.

I'm on to rails and boxes next time I go. I still fall backwards every time. this is an easy fix, I think - I keep my weight backwards, like you would grinding on concrete. I think I need to keep my weight centered, if not a bit forwards, since there's not much friction to resist. Plus, if I do that I will be falling forwards not backwards, which is much more preferable, imo.