Full Tilt Booter, Stock Zero Binding - A Backcountry Review and Trip Report

[Jens]

Damn, I feel so jealous now! Nice pictures, Jack!

[jjue]

Thanks, Jack, that's helpful. I have Receptors, Bombers, and Line FFPros for study but don't have a pair of Zeros, but I do remember checking out your pair and thinking the wide bales could cause some sloppiness. I'm anxious to hear how this works for you the coming weekend. I wonder if the wider (toe) bale might actually help by permitting some limited side-travel without actually torquing out? The other bale issue is angle. The boot heel (being higher than the toe protrusion of the boot) requires a sharper (vertical) bale angle for good contact. The same bale for the toe works better with a less acute angle...these are things I've been kicking around.

hi bill , got a great chance to torture test the zero touring binding set up with my full tilt boots ... on the flat you can torque the toe a bit in the heel bale when used in touring mode but never enough to really come out or cause much of a problem .. when climbing the front lever used as a heel elevator in the low position really helps to provide help as a heel locator , keeping the heel of the boot from torqueing , the boot sits on the adjustment screw of the front lever and the side wires of the front bale serve as side wires as a heel cup to prevent the boot from torqueing on high angle climbing traverses with crampons on steep icy slopes.. the whole set up worked like a charm .. the high position of the heel elevator worked great climbing straight up the hill , when i wanted to do side climbing or traverses , i just knocked it down into the low position to give some more support around the heel of my boot ... i hope with the photos above in this thread you can understand what i am saying about the use of the front lever and front bale as a heel locator and heel elevator...

here is a pic of the dirtbag SBOL forum Zero Pro touring binding solution in the low position heel elevator . crampon mode .. nice comparo with the much more expensive fritschi swiss touring binding that my buddy Micheal has on his Icelantic scouts .

[Bill]

I was initially concerned because I thought the bale of the zeros' were too wide and allowed too much play side to side with my Full tilts but on testing in the field .. I think it really is ok ... .. .

Thanks, Jack, that's helpful. I have Receptors, Bombers, and Line FFPros for study but don't have a pair of Zeros, but I do remember checking out your pair and thinking the wide bales could cause some sloppiness. I'm anxious to hear how this works for you the coming weekend. I wonder if the wider (toe) bale might actually help by permitting some limited side-travel without actually torquing out? The other bale issue is angle. The boot heel (being higher than the toe protrusion of the boot) requires a sharper (vertical) bale angle for good contact. The same bale for the toe works better with a less acute angle...these are things I've been kicking around.

[Bill]

Dave, yes, that's exactly what I was guessing. I think the solution will end up being some sort of compound radius. I've been playing with some annealed rod and trying different things.

[jjue]

Jack, do you find that the wider, larger-radius heel bales on the zeros hold securely enough...without side-to-side play...as toe and/or heel bales?

If you take a look at the pictures of skyskater's bindings, he uses a straight rod as a heel bale which would be the ultimate "fit-anything" bale but I imagine might have too much side-play or not enough contact area for your demanding application? I've been playing with custom bale configurations and trying to figure out a solution.

Hi Bill , I was initially concerned because I thought the bale of the zeros' were too wide and allowed too much play side to side with my Full tilts but on testing in the field .. I think it really is ok ... the key is 1 / running the springs on the telemark cables nice and tight ... if you run the cables too loose you can torque side to side easier .. , the adjustment on these cables is a simple measure of spinning the cylinders 2/some way to locate the heel and prevent side to side motion of the heel is important .. if you look at the photos of the zero binding front lever used as heel elevator . you will notice in the low position the sole of the boot rests on the adjustment screw of the front lever and is prevented by twisting much by the side bales of the front bale , this really helps prevent twist and makes you less dependent on a very firm hold down of the toe bale .. 3/ in the high position the boot sits on the front lever and screw knob and although the side wings of the bale are not around the boot .. the high position in and of itself , causes the telemark spring cables to become tighter and prevent twisting ... i plan to torture test this whole system in steep firm icy snow climbing this saturday and see if everything holds in place as I expect it will .. in climbing traverses in on icy slope using ski crampons .. i think i will probably use the low position of front lever/heel elevator . as it seems llike it will be the most secure and most liable to prevent twisting of my boot in the telemark binding while side hilling .. .

[valmorel]

Bill, when I played with straight bales awhile back, I found they would bend a little and loosen on ompacts such as crashes. Just my two cents..................

[Bill]

the receptor heel bale is too small to be used as a toe bale for any ski boots ...
i used a line ff pro heel bale in the receptor binding it fits all regular ski boots as a toe bale except for the Full tilt ..
the only current standard heel bale that can be used as a toe bale for Full tilt boots are the Zeros which have a very wide heel bale ....

Jack, do you find that the wider, larger-radius heel bales on the zeros hold securely enough...without side-to-side play...as toe and/or heel bales?

If you take a look at the pictures of skyskater's bindings, he uses a straight rod as a heel bale which would be the ultimate "fit-anything" bale but I imagine might have too much side-play or not enough contact area for your demanding application? I've been playing with custom bale configurations and trying to figure out a solution.

[jjue]

So why do mountaineering boots have a wide toe?

alpine touring boots, mountaineering boots , are constructed more like hiking boots with a wider toe box then regular ski boots which have a narrower last in the front ... i assume that regular ski boots are constructed that way because of the narrow din standard front sole .. .and the other boots are constructed more like regular shoes ..

[slow]

So why do mountaineering boots have a wide toe?

[jjue]

Past and present

The use of short skis and skiboards in the backcountry amongst climbers has a long history Lowell Skoog was one of the pioneers ... here is a recent thread amongst cascade climbers with pics ... The only problem with the Condor/Zero set up , is that the use of the heel bale as a toe bale cannot be used with standard mountaineering boots because of the width of mountaineering boot toes .. it could be used however , in my original design with the front bale used as the front bale for touring applications ...

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubb...escent_skis_fi

Standard skiboard bindings could be used with the heel bale as a toe bale for mountaineering type boots by fashioning some wider heel bales .. the size of the skiboard would be the limiting factor as to which boots could be used to drive what skiboards.. in my experience standard plastic mountaineering boots would be too soft to drive a real big skiboard like the Condor ..

[jjue]

Comparison Kong Grimper binding vs Touring Skiboard binding

A couple of proprietary skiboard touring bindings have been developed ... which are based on the principle of a non release skiboard binding mounted on free pivoting base plate , the base plate is moved forward for climbing and then backwards for descent ..

Here is a diagram of the Kong Grimper system


Here is a description of how it works . ...


Instructions


1.
Fix your boot onto the binding, locking it by the plate B. Warning: do not over tight the plate because it may cause a bending.

2.
To climbing a gentle slope, loosen the screw A and move the binding to the front end, then lock again the screw. In this case, the steel tip C is kept in the closed position.


3.
Climbing a steep slope, you may open the stainless steel tip C. The tip will lean against the nylon plate D fixed on the ski.

4.
Willing to lock the heel during the descent, loosen the screw A and move the binding to the back end, blocking it into the grip E.

The really cool thing about the idea of reversing a regular skiboard binding with a set back and using the heel bale as a toe bale , is that we accomplish the same thing as a moveable plate binding just by turning our skiboard around during transitions . In climbing position we are forward on the skiboard and for descent we are set back .Also we can press in to service different parts of the regular skiboard binding for different roles.. Such as the use of the front lever as a climbing assist heel elevator . It is really a unique feature of the design of regular non release skiboard bindings to allow this type of touring binding without the need to buy a proprietary binding system and is a special feature of a skiboarding as a winter mountaineering sport.

[jjue]

Tweaking the Zero touring binding

For those using the Zero as the base binding for touring applications here are a couple of simple suggestions to improve touring function

1/ i use a small piece of thin rubber sheeting in the heel bale slot to allow the heel bale to stand up by itself .. this is really useful in transitions where it is easier getting into heel bale when used as a toe bale for touring , or used as a heel bale in the descent..




2/ I install a wood screw just in front of the front lever of the binding , this allows the front lever not to be kicked down while climbing and allows the lever to stay in place well as a climbing bar in the low position .. in the high position the lever is braced by the serrations in the front bale binding base plate .

[valmorel]

you will love those Condors , Valmorel , they are crazy fun , especially in pow and junk and crud ... and not bad on the groomers as well ....

Condors reached UK. Just waiting to hear they have reached local depot (probably tomorrow). Provisionally booked Xscape for Sunday.

[jjue]

Snow depth looks like about the same as our Mount Rose day? Perfect. Hoping my Condors will arrive in the next few days, then I will be chasing you Jack!

Yes . Valmorel .. speed through the snow was about the same as Mt Rose day ... interesteing this thing about snow ... we had a storm 2 days before , pretty much similar to the storm we had before our shredfest backcountry day , , , but the snow had had time to set up , so was denser then the shredfest backcountry day and provided more support and more speed . lots of fun ! you will love those Condors , Valmorel , they are crazy fun , especially in pow and junk and crud ... and not bad on the groomers as well ....

[valmorel]

Snow depth looks like about the same as our Mount Rose day? Perfect. Hoping my Condors will arrive in the next few days, then I will be chasing you Jack!