Centered vs. Set-back riding

[Steeps]

As long as you're keeping your tips up, there's no need to set back. I've gotten to be a bigger fan of riding centred since I got my Playmakers, and have even moved a bit further forward on my Spliffs as a result. Haven't had a big enough powder day to try the 4 x 4 setbacks on the Playmakers yet.

Yeah, I'm not too concerned about breaking one of the new breed, and you're right on the DLPs.. those babies bounce right back when you put any sort of flex into the tails. If they'll take Dave's riding, mine is nothing by comparison.

Having a good laugh at this one... Broke the tail on that set of DLPs in the spring of the following season, I think, riding with significant setback. Mind you, I think I was riding way back on the tails with the tips off the ground in heavy spring slush, so....

[nordicwilly]

Fascinating how there are such different opinions on this. I tried the setback position on Ospreys this week in powder and chopped up powder and have concluded that I definitely fall into the centered camp. The setback position feels like traditional skis to me and gives me sensation like I'm pivoting on my heels.

I feel so much more balanced fore-aft in the centered position, even in moderate amount of powder. It has that skating feel like Wookie mentioned. And the security for when you gotta lay down a carve.

[Steeps]

I did a lot of drops this year too. They were mostly vertical, straight down, consistently about 5'9... aka me falling on my face. I hope with the upgrade in boards for me that I will progress quickly and get some confidence to get off the groomed runs and do a little exploring.

Don't worry, you'll be up to catching your tips in heavy pow and flying ten feet through the air before you land on your face in no time! I remember the first good day of trying to land (small) jumps in heavy powder on skiboards all those years ago... it was good fun. Such nice warm packing snow that I left at least 20 exact impressions of my facial features all over the hill.

I ride pretty much always centered. But I play in the park and ride switch all the time. These modern R8 and Spruce boards are far better built than those M7s.....

Yeah, I'm not too concerned about breaking one of the new breed, and you're right on the DLPs.. those babies bounce right back when you put any sort of flex into the tails. If they'll take Dave's riding, mine is nothing by comparison.

I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I'm kicking around the idea of having some carbon fibre mounting "risers" (I'd probably keep them fairly low, similar to Receptor height) made up to mount touring bindings on. I guess the idea would be to have them flex with the board when necessary and not create such a fulcrum point, as compared to aluminum. I also want to get a local CF equipment maker interested in skiboards, but I'm not going to be able to afford a custom pair any time soon!

I ride pretty safe... only hit one tree this year, and I'm pretty sure it jumped into my path. I'm cautious on drops until I know the terrain, and had the luxury of riding a hill with lots of features that I could hit frequently to get the safe lines worked out. Hardpack groomers and park scare me though; I'll stick to tight glades, extreme pitches and a few little cliffs where it's safe.

[Fun Machine]

I ride pretty much always centered. But I play in the park and ride switch all the time. These modern R8 and Spruce boards are far better built than those M7s. My first Atomic blades broke after a moderate back seat landing off an S box. My skiboards have been subjected to far worse and are fine. The flex is definitely affected when used with Spruce risers both positively and negatively. The riser not only has a longer contact length under the foot to reduce the flex but when the board flexes enough for the tips of the riser to make contact with the board it creates an artificial "step-up" in flex which changes the behavior of the board under pressure. This happens to me all the time and all my boards have marks where they make contact. I'm not worried about the boards breaking at the contact point (try breaking a pop stick in half over an edge, then try breaking a half of one over the same edge, it's harder because you don't have leverage). But I've for example experienced severe chatter and slip-out on fast hard turns on dense hard pack and concluded it's because the flex beyond the point of contact changes the curve of the edge and causes the stiffer center area to lift up and disengage while the tips are still gripping. To compensate I've changed my riding style away from pure carving on skiboards with risers. The DLP are built like tanks. If you end up breaking those from stress, you will probably have other more important things to worry about than the boards. Just ride smart and stay safe!

[mvhoffman]

I've chewed up my rubber under-binding pads a bit, mostly at the back I think. They're heavily imprinted with the bottom of the binding.

I'm no park rat, just big all-mountain stuff. Did a lot of drops this year, mostly in the 5 - 15 ft (vertical) range. Good runs where I had my lines down might have involved as many as 8 consecutive drops. Next year I'll be back at Kicking Horse where it's steeper and I can put more speed back in the mix. The last run of the season up there was pure awesome... drop, scream down a face full of powder, bigger drop, ride it out through more fresh, didn't eat it.

Honestly, towards the end of the season I was more concerned about snapping my tibia than my tails, after a few too many backseat landings... I'd prefer to break the tails.


My M7's were 20 years old, so I'm not so much concerned about breaking a Spliff or a DLP any time soon.

I did a lot of drops this year too. They were mostly vertical, straight down, consistently about 5'9... aka me falling on my face. I hope with the upgrade in boards for me that I will progress quickly and get some confidence to get off the groomed runs and do a little exploring.

[Steeps]

I've chewed up my rubber under-binding pads a bit, mostly at the back I think. They're heavily imprinted with the bottom of the binding.

I'm no park rat, just big all-mountain stuff. Did a lot of drops this year, mostly in the 5 - 15 ft (vertical) range. Good runs where I had my lines down might have involved as many as 8 consecutive drops. Next year I'll be back at Kicking Horse where it's steeper and I can put more speed back in the mix. The last run of the season up there was pure awesome... drop, scream down a face full of powder, bigger drop, ride it out through more fresh, didn't eat it.

Honestly, towards the end of the season I was more concerned about snapping my tibia than my tails, after a few too many backseat landings... I'd prefer to break the tails.


My M7's were 20 years old, so I'm not so much concerned about breaking a Spliff or a DLP any time soon.

[mvhoffman]

I would think that in order to flex your board to the point of failure/breakage you'd have to be riding pretty hard. I know that there are a lot of park people here (which is awesome, but I would kill myself in the park) and I would imagine that is where the most "breakage" would occur.

For someone who is mainly on regular old fashion groomed runs, or even off the run a bit, unless there is jumping/dropping down faces, the normal flex point or extended flex point shouldn't really be affected right?

[Bad Wolf]

One thing I've been wondering is how binding position affects flex and stress on the boards. I've noticed that with a foot raised and putting a bit of pressure on the tail of the board (standing still) there's a pretty obvious bend point that occurs right under the rear of the binding. This is where my M6's snapped on me. I'm sure well-made skiboards are meant to take it, but it seems like the bindings must put a tremendous amount of pressure at this point, especially when you land a drop backseat.

I'm not really set back in terms of binding mounting (using the front set of holes on my Receptors on the centre-only 4 x 4 mount), but I do put my boots almost full back on the bindings.

More of an observation than a question, but any comments?

There definitely seems to be a relationship between the effective footprint of a binding and the flex of a skiboard. The longer the binding, the less it will flex. That may be a positive or negative, depending in your riding style. Some riders do also report the feeling of a “flat spot” when direct fixing their bindings to their boards.

As far as feel and responsiveness goes, nothing seems to compare to non release binding, but as you have mentioned, it does produce a potential lever to cause aboard to fail under stress. Some riders have even reported flexing their board enough to contact the raised part of a riser.

Pros and cons.....

[Steeps]

One thing I've been wondering is how binding position affects flex and stress on the boards. I've noticed that with a foot raised and putting a bit of pressure on the tail of the board (standing still) there's a pretty obvious bend point that occurs right under the rear of the binding. This is where my M6's snapped on me. I'm sure well-made skiboards are meant to take it, but it seems like the bindings must put a tremendous amount of pressure at this point, especially when you land a drop backseat.

I'm not really set back in terms of binding mounting (using the front set of holes on my Receptors on the centre-only 4 x 4 mount), but I do put my boots almost full back on the bindings.

More of an observation than a question, but any comments?

[macrophotog]

The only boards I've ever ridden set-back are the Spruce Crossbows which is how I prefer them. All others I've owned, I had always ridden centered - in fact never even tried any of them setback.

[Bad Wolf]

Maybe because they were so stiff, or even that I’m not that refined, but I couldn’t tell the difference between centered and setback on my KTPs. So, I just ride them set back all season. I guessed it would help on powder days and I wouldn’t have to worry about changing them out.

[Bill]

Thanks for all of the replies so far everyone. I am taking a try at a Binding Freedom project of HDPE risers with a TON of direction from Wolf. I was so used to riding set back with the Heads I rode, I plan on doing it with the Revolts. I am making the HDPE risers with a 3rd row so I can either set the riser centered or set back. The project is coming along great. I will make a thread with pictures once I start to get everything together.

mvh, it you're making custom risers and concerned with setback, here's something to think about, although it's sort of the reverse approach compared to a flat riser drilled with multiple setback options.

As an experiment, I’ve been playing around with ultra-short footprint risers/bindings to see if moving the fulcrum point forward (and increasing the length of unsupported skiboard under-heel) has the benefit of setback while maintaining a center mount. A riser that begins to taper just shy of the rear inserts should give tremendous leverage underfoot to help keeps tips high. With limited riding (on local, firm conditions) it seems promising, but will take some fleshing out in real powder conditions to know for sure.

Of course, this is more of thing for 4x4 cm boards like your Revolts. Spruce risers are already optimized this way for 4x10 longboards.

[mvhoffman]

Thanks for all of the replies so far everyone. I am taking a try at a Binding Freedom project of HDPE risers with a TON of direction from Wolf. I was so used to riding set back with the Heads I rode, I plan on doing it with the Revolts. I am making the HDPE risers with a 3rd row so I can either set the riser centered or set back. The project is coming along great. I will make a thread with pictures once I start to get everything together.

[Toro]

I prefer centered since I really like the feeling of the tail support. Being in the center of the sidecut is something I love about skiboards and the carves just feel amazing that way. While I can see setback as necessary for powder days when the tips really need to be up, I view it as a last resort.


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[Steeps]

Set back, as far as possible. This season in particular has been powder, powder, powder, so it's helped me keep my tips up and floating.

I find setting the bindings back (and the boots adjusted to the back of the binding) allows my stance to be more centred (weight wise) and avoids the tendency to sit backseat to try keep my tips up. These are on centre-mount boards, though... so the adjustment back isn't as big as for other boards.

Also, when you're dropping off silly things at higher speeds, the ability to ride out whatever crud is below that little cliff or pillow becomes important. I'd rather fall backseat, sit and (hopefully) recover enough to ride out than go over the bars and into a tomahawk.

I've been riding Spliffs most of the season, which soak up rough snow pretty well with the rocker, and are solid on the tails with the camber. I will quite likely end up switching my DLPs back to more of a centred position if they start getting used for their intended purpose (hardpack during snow droughts), but they saw mostly spring snow, rock drops and moderate powder this year. In those conditions, the setback has helped big time in preventing the tips from catching and diving.