No Poles - Much Smoother Form - Very Weird

[Bluewing]

On the afternoon of the final day at the moguls course I recently took, the instructor had us ski moguls with no poles. We put our poles in one hand and skied the runs. My skiing improved a lot. I was a bit puzzled as to why, but the instructor said this was a common occurrence. Logically, one reason for the improvement might be that by not using poles you were removing one variable (holding them in the right position according to the teaching methodology, doing the pole touch properly to start each turn, etc). But, I have been skiing with poles for the last 5 1/2 years.

At Day One of Elk Jam III yesterday I was using the "slow skiing" techniques quite a bit. My turn initiation is still not "quiet" enough and the first part of my turns often were not as smooth as they could have been. So, I stop using my poles holding them in one hand again. Wallah - my skiing instantly improved. Turn initiation issues went away, hand/arm positioning throughout the turn was much better and my skiing technique was much more fluid. Still can't figure out the reason, but who am I to question. I skied without using my poles the last 1/3 of the day and skied great. I did not use poles on the last run down Tunkhannock, Elk's steep mogul run. That run was my best - still not great overall, but better and the final third of the run was good.

One theory I have about the issue with my skiing not being as fluid with poles is that I am wearing mittens. Mittens - how in the world do they inhibit the use of poles??? My thinking is that with the low dexterity of the mitten, I have no nuance to how I am holding the poles. Basically, grabbing the handle and holding in a static position. I watched my coach at the moguls course I took, who was wearing gloves, and he used a lot of nuance in how he held and used the pole. For his pole touches he actually let go of the pole except loosely holding it with his first two fingers and flicked the pole forward to the touch position. He then re-gripped it loosely with all of his fingers at the pole touch movement. So, I am going to get a pair of ski gloves and see if that makes a difference.

[sempai]

Yes, weird!

[Bad Wolf]

Interesting. I've been going forwards and backwards over pole use all season.

I think you mentioned in your bump thread, that they specifically worked on hand and arm position at the end of your course, and that lead to great improvements. Could you expand a little on that, what did they have you do and was it affected by pole use?

[valmorel]

Using poles the way you have been taught, rather than a useful aid to crossing flats, goes back to long narrow skis, 'skinnies'. With these it was essential to unweight as part of the turn process. Unweighting has not been necessary since the introduction of carvers, but it still works. The problem is, it's jerky. This works against the natural flow of modern skis, and even more so with skiboards, but there is a lot of tradition out there, and folks who just can't master carving still benefit from this unweighting system.

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[valmorel]

Wallah . . . You mean VOILA, but it's French so you are excused 😉

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[Bluewing]

Interesting. I've been going forwards and backwards over pole use all season.

I think you mentioned in your bump thread, that they specifically worked on hand and arm position at the end of your course, and that lead to great improvements. Could you expand a little on that, what did they have you do and was it affected by pole use?

Bad Wolf - it is not something I can explain because I don't understand the reasons - at least not yet. I never felt uncomfortable using poles while skiing the way I used to ski - i.e., faster pace and hard edging all the time. With this slow technique nuance matters and the "jerkiness" of using poles - even just holding them out and not doing pole touches - came out.

The B for B approach emphasizes being forward in your stance and keeping hands/arms forward and doing a small reach to help initiate the zero momentum turn. For me with poles that all seems very awkward. Without using the poles - very fluid. The other weird thing that is true for me and the B for B coach said he has seen consistently is that when people do not use poles, they seem to naturally keep their hands forward. And, more importantly, if they get a bit out of balance or start feeling a bit hesitant in steeper/nastier terrain, they don't reach behind with their uphill arm. I definitely found myself doing that when using poles. It is crazy because you know reaching back does not good, but something your brain tells you to do it - like you are going to be able to put the pole on the slope behind you for stability.

I have also found my arms to be more rhythmic in their motion throughout the turning process without poles. That is a big help to make the turning sequences one smooth series of movements.

[Pedro]

If you look at a lot of skiers when going downhill they don't actually use their poles. They just kind of dangle there. It makes me wonder why they bother. Having said that I always use poles in the backcountry and in deep powder. Apart from other advantages it's safer in this environment.

I'd disagree with unweighting. Sure, with modern skis and especially skiboards it's not necessary. But someone who knows how to unweight properly (most don't ) will make a far smoother carve and be able to carve in a tighter arc. I also find that people who don't unweight have the jerky turns. Unweighting also helps with stiffer skiboards which do have their advantages. I prefer a good stiff board unless I'm going in powder. Unweighting really comes into its own in the deep stuff and will help get the tips up without all that leaning back nonsense

[Kocho]

Unweighting of the tail (and increasing tip pressure, which often goes together with lighter tails) is very useful on any size ski or skiboard. As mentioned, especially on harder terrain and edgier boards. Some do it with a little hop, others with up and down motion, others with more forward transfer of the weight, or it can be done with flexing the knees. It's a lot of fun and adds a more dynamic dimension to skiing, especially on short turns.

[mhealey]

Bluewing - as you know, I have been riding Sherpas with poles for 3 seasons now, and recently I have been paying very close attention to how I use them (because I want to ditch them ). I can't say too much without actually seeing your form and what you are being taught, but your mention of the instructor's form sounds very similar to how I ride. The vast majority of the motion in each of my pole plants comes from my wrist/hand, not my entire arm. From what I can tell, it usually goes something like this:

At the beginning of a new turn, I'll raise my arm up enough to get the pole ~6 inches off the ground. Once it is lifted up, it is still not in position for the next turn, it is simply no longer dragging on the ground. I do this step just as I am starting to shift my weight off of my outside leg. Then, as I am getting ready to pivot to turn the other way, I'll do sort of a wrist flick motion to get the pole out in front of me and into the position that I want (this varies from turn to turn, typically the more aggressive the turn the farther out in front of me it goes). Only then will I move my entire arm again - the pole is now where I want it, so I will lower my arm straight down so the pole plants in the ground. As I am planting it I will really get into the pivot "around" the pole and start to really dig my edge in.

I'm not sure how clear that is, as it's difficult to explain without a demonstration, but hopefully that will provide some insight. Some other things to note:

-I do this technique in fairly heavy mittens, so I'm not sure gloves will help that much. In my mind it's more about mastering the "wrist flick" portion to get the pole to go where you want it to.
-The only time I've noticed a real benefit from this is on extremely steep terrain where you have to shift your weight very quickly to avoid picking up excessive speed. That being said, it could be done just as well without poles, you'll just end up making some interesting motions with your arms.
-Finally, I never learned this technique from a real instructor, I kinda just started doing it after I rode with poles for a while. So, my style could be totally unorthodox and "wrong", but it works for me at least.

Hope this helps!

[Bad Wolf]

I starting using poles for the first time when I got back on long skis at the end of last season. I found that poles really helped me to get my weight forwards by reaching down the slope. When this season started, and I was back on skiboards, I kept using the poles because they seemed to help me progress with my technique. I took them on our trip to Utah, but found myself using them less and less. They were handy on the flats and in the lift lines, but most of the time I wasn't making pole plants with them, I was just carrying them around. I still find them handy when it gets really steep, but they seemed to have served their purpose now and will be put away for the rest of the season.

I think for me, it's more about the position of my upper body rather them my arms. As long as my chest is facing downhill and leading my skis, my arms can hang relaxed at my sides. With poles, I seem to have to make a conscious effort to keep my hands in front of me or they cause issues. I think Bluewing mentioned that it's easy to let the inside arm drag your upper body back into the hill. So, I guess the bottom line for me is that poles have been a great teaching aid, but are not something I will continue to use regularly.

I can't use poles with mittens, I have to wear my gloves with them. I just can't get my hands through the loops with mittens on.

[Fun Machine]

There is a subtle but opposing difference in technique when you turn with and without pole plants. When you have no poles or do but don't use them properly, your hand and arm positions (and the poles) really only serve as counterweights against the rotation of the body. Your natural body motion will then look like walking or running where your right arm and hand extend forward as your left leg and foot extend back on a neutral frame. It is easy to understand this effect in skiing/skiboarding if you simulate it in a room. Try the motions of quick hard carves to the left and right wearing socks on a hardwood floor. Your lower body will rotate to the right while your upper body counter-rotates to the left and your left arm and hand will be behind you while your right arm and hand will be in front of you, then the exact opposite as you turn to the left. Very normal and no real reason to correct as long as your upper frame stays neutral - if you don't plant those poles.

But consider if you did have to plant those poles - would your arms and hands be in position turn after turn?

To use poles properly, you cannot use your arms, hands and the poles as counterweights because they must be in a neutral or slightly opposite position as above in order to plant the pole. Now try motions of the same back to back hard carves but focus on keeping your entire upper body including frame, arms and hands in a neutral position. It may feel a little unnatural at first like walking with the same side foot and hand forward, perhaps even a bit "stiff". But you should then see that you can easily position the pole for planting with a slight upward rotation of the wrist or a brief reach forward with the arm as you position into the turn.

If you are experiencing jerkiness while pole planting on runs, it's probably timing, positioning or putting too much strength into the pole plant. It should feel like a soft adjustment or pivot in the turn. I agree that mastery of pole planting skills has largely become obviated for most riders due to advances in skis and skiboards that make turning easier even on moguls. But if you do learn it, it will make you a more efficient rider with or without poles.

[Kocho]

In addition to keeping rhythm and stance, I think poles also help with subtle balance adjustments. I ski better with poles than without and I use them actively on every turn. One can influence the balance through a pole with very little force because that force is applied high-up at your shoulders. In contrast, to correct your balance through your feet, you are working the short end of the lever, so it take a lot more effort to achieve the same effect.

Of course, one can think the other way around - a small shift in the skis can have a large effect on the balance. Skiing without poles, or using the poles in drills off the snow in various positions teaches finer balance and proper alignment. But at the end of the day, once you know what to do with the poles, they are not in the way at all.

I think poles are more useful than not, especially with longer skis where motions are slower so a long slow lever motion on the snow through a pole works a lot better than swinging your empty arm for counterbalancing. With short skiboards I can see a good argument to not use poles since the boards are so agile and quick shifting (almost like skates or running in shoes) that poles could slow one down and generally get in the way.

[Wookie]

Poles are EVIL (You knew someone was going to say it .... why not me ... )

I don't knock anyone for using poles but they just don't work for me. I don't even own a set of poles anymore but I am regularly tasked at holding my kids poles when they want to ride through Park or take video with a GoPro. Just having the poles in my had is enough to make me feel uncomfortable.

Prior to selling my poles I tried them to help with form, traversing flats, or navigate tough lift lines and found that I didn't need them for any of it. I am sure that if I was a back country skiboarder they would be a great tool for the ascent but descending the hill (on piste or off) without poles is such a freeing experience. If you subscribe to claim that the best feature of skiboarding is it's minimalism then free your hands and enjoy the flow.

[shortydude]

I've heard several times here to keep your hands in front of you. Are you saying even if your traversing keep them in the direction your going? That gets me into trouble. I had an instructor years ago that emphasized keeping your hands pointed down the fall line, and that has saved me a million times. When I start getting out of control I throw my hands down the fall line and that squares up my shoulders and chest and usually gets me out of trouble. So, I'm wondering if keeping your hands if front and down the fall line are the same thing?

[Kocho]

To me these are not the same things. I too try to rotate in the direction and face the fall line rather than face in the direction of my skis, so arms should be squared with the body. Now, am I always facing the fall line? No, especially if making a long and more perpendicular to the fall line traverse, or if I'm carving a turn that crosses well over the fall line or even goes up-hill: facing down the fall line in those situations I think would be counter-productive, but there is some rotation down towards the fall line even in these cases and I am not squared with my skis. The only time I'm squared with my skis is when I am flat on the skis transitioning out of a turn (for instance, if you've seen Harald Harb's videos on flexing, that's when he is flat and square - between turns).

I think the "in the front" might be more of a reference to not let the arms swing back and especially up the hill when trying to go down the hill. Or maybe to extend forward leading to or emphasizing the forward weight transfer.

I've heard several times here to keep your hands in front of you. Are you saying even if your traversing keep them in the direction your going? That gets me into trouble. I had an instructor years ago that emphasized keeping your hands pointed down the fall line, and that has saved me a million times. When I start getting out of control I throw my hands down the fall line and that squares up my shoulders and chest and usually gets me out of trouble. So, I'm wondering if keeping your hands if front and down the fall line are the same thing?