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Skiboarding vs Skiing , toward a new definition

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  • Skiboarding vs Skiing , toward a new definition

    I have recently been thinking a lot about how skiboarding can be distinguished from skiing especially as the lines between our equipment become blurred ... 10cm in length and and a different turn radius separates the Icelantic scout 140cm twintip ski and the 130 cm Sherpa skiboard. Skiboards are no longer fatter then skis and in fact look for all the world like small twin tips with a turnier more radical turn radius. So is it the equipment or the style that makes the difference ?
    I would like to propose that it is NOT the equipment but actually the style ....


    Let me digress and talk a little bit about telemark skiing ... telemark skiing allows you to have a free heel , you can ski your gear with a dropped knee telemark style ... but you don't have to .. in fact you can ski telemark gear flat footed and look to the outside world EXACTLY like an alpine downhill skier , in fact the boots and bindings on casual glance look the same and if you do not lift up your heel no one will ever know ! Strong flat foot alpine turns are very effective on modern telemark gear .. the skis are exactly the same , so what is the difference ?? It is the equipment that allows a different style of skiing that is called telemark skiing .

    In much the same way , our skiboard equipment with its short length, wide bodied , tight turn radius shape , allows a different style of riding .. then traditional alpine skiing ... it is style characterised by the rider controlling his boards primarily by carving from edge to edge on firmer snow and using a double footed heel down the fall line turn in powder without poles and the use of skating for getting around the flats. ... to me the essential characteristic that defines the skiboarding style is the lack of poles and skating around the ski area ... it makes someone looking at us , say yeah there is a skiboarder .. much as when we watch a skier take a bent knee turn makes us say , yeah there is a telemark skier...

    Add the poles and we are skiing on skiboards... this is neither good nor bad .. but it is a different style .. it doesn't matter whether I on Condors , Alps or Sherpas , hardboot or snowboard boots.. the equipment is not the issue ... once I put poles in hand I am skiing , not only does it look different .. I can tell you that right away it feels different to me .. my stance is more upright , I use more ski techniques , pole plants , counter rotations , all that is involved .., skiboarding .. I am lower in stance , just following around the natural curve of my skiboards and letting the skiboards do the work ..

    Now how about twintips , can you skiboard on twintips .. absolutely , take a look of the poleless style of some of the newschool twintip riders in the park or on the mountain .. they are skiboarding on skis ( don't tell them that though .. they will not agree ) ....

    For me personally , the dividing line as to which style I prefer is whether I am in bounds or out of bounds .. I prefer skiboards over twintips in all conditions , but in the resort I never use poles... I prefer the feel of skiboarding over skiing and for me the resort is the perfect place to get around without poles .. most resorts are now designed with snowboarders in mind who , of course, never have poles in hand , and with our ability to skate .. it is pretty much simple to get around most modern resorts. In the backcountry , not using poles for the descent , I have come to understand, was just for me style with no purpose .. Backcountry is all about getting up and getting down efficiently with the most vertical in one day . I have poles in hand to climb and they are very useful in backcountry situations to get around , so why not just ski my skiboards in the backcountry, . ... I now descend all the time skiing my skiboards in the backcountry whether I am on my Sherpa or my Condor ... I save energy and have more energy to climb , it is just more efficient on the descent .. I use poles to rest , to climb up small rises and move around while on the descent , have a more upright stance and use skier techniques with poles to help muscle my skiboards around in tough nasty backcountry snow .... so for me the mantra is skiboarding my skiboards at the resort , and skiing my skiboards in the backcountry ......

    Ok here are two different guys on exactly the same equipment , different styles...
    It is not the equipment that defines the difference . .it is the style of riding that defines the difference.
    one guy is skiboarding , the other guy is skiing.

    skiboarding on the Sherpas




    skiing on the sherpas
    Boards :
    Blunt Xl, DLP, Spliff, Condor, Rockered Condor , Slingshot, Sherpa, Icelantic Shaman
    Boots
    K2 BFC 100 Grip walk sole , Dynafit CR Radical AT boot, Ride Insano Snowboard boots
    Bindings:
    Zero Pro Non release Binding
    Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
    Spruce Riser with Attack 14 GW /AT binding
    Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)
    Rocker and Sbol Soft Boot Bindings.

  • #2
    interesting thoughts jack, myself i dont really see a difference in technique between skiboarding and skiing. the only time i see a difference is when watching people jump on skiboards with no previous snow experience. then its just laughable. i always feel that a few ski lessons will do most inexperienced skiboarders the world of good. i know that people feel skiboarding is some kind of freedom as there are no laid down skill sets/learning manuals, but in essence the technique is the same, some adaption made for shorter length is really the only difference. maybe thats why skiboarding/snowblading is kind of regarded as a joke in some circles, the lack of skills is really apparent at times. watching people swinging there shoulders to try and turn makes me cringe. dont get me wrong there are as many people on skis who do exactly the same, but skiing is not my chosen sport.
    i think the only true difference between skis and skiboards is the equipment.
    Rockered Condors/Bomber Elite 2's
    Spruce 125LE's/Tyrolia attack 13 bindings

    Comment


    • #3
      I see the difference big time. I often switch stances to give my legs a break. The skiing stance is really evident when I'm riding my Hagans or Atomics. Note the turns in the two videos. The skiboard technique uses hopping turns. The skiing video pole plants and skis skid around the poles. I like both stances. Both work to get you down the hill and are fun techniques. Neither is better, just different. I do think it's technique not the equipment. I've often mistaken twin tip skiers for skiboarder on the slopes when they ski poleless. I also saw the change last shredfest in how Michael road the Sherpas when he tried them. He rode them like skis in the morning. By the afternoon, he was riding without using the poles and the posture was very different.

      Wendell
      Now: 08 Sherpa's (2), Atomic 120's, 2013 125 Protos, 125 LEs, 2014 Sherpas, Osprey protos, 2015 Blunt XL's, 2016 Ospreys, Ethan Too twintip skis,2017 Shredfest One of kind Spliffs, 2018 Crossbows
      Bindings: Spruce Risers and Tyrolia LD12's
      Boots: Full Tilt Booters, Tecnica Agent 110
      History: Atomic shorty's, Sporten, Groove Taxis, Head 94's, ALPs, Spruce 120 Blue boards, Custom Lacroixs, Rocker Condors, 08 Summit 110's, Hagan offlimits 133's, Rossi 130's, 2011 Summit Marauders

      Comment


      • #4
        It is really weird how for a life long skier the poles in each hand really triggesr a whole automatic skill set .. when I have one pole in each hand , I automatically use them to trigger a whole way of downhill riding which looks like the second , sherpa skier video above.. If I put both poles in one hand and hold them cross wise at the middle like Wendell taught me .. I immediately feel the same as I do without poles and change to a lower stance and ride more like Skafreak in the first sherpa video ..
        I have seen Wendell and Jeff Singer do this also on their longboard skiboards.. .. when they put the poles both together in one hand , it seems to trigger them also to assume a skiboarder like stance that is lower and cannot be distinguished from the kind of stance folks use without poles....... this is exactly what my buddy Michael ,did at the last Shredfest when first trying out the Sherpa , first he used the poles one in each hand and rode the Sherpa just like his skis ,t hen, later he put both poles in one hand and assumed a lower skiboarder stance and steered the Sherpa differently ... like Wendell ,says, very noticeable ...
        Boards :
        Blunt Xl, DLP, Spliff, Condor, Rockered Condor , Slingshot, Sherpa, Icelantic Shaman
        Boots
        K2 BFC 100 Grip walk sole , Dynafit CR Radical AT boot, Ride Insano Snowboard boots
        Bindings:
        Zero Pro Non release Binding
        Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
        Spruce Riser with Attack 14 GW /AT binding
        Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)
        Rocker and Sbol Soft Boot Bindings.

        Comment


        • #5
          Now the pole thing is VERY interesting. Let me share with you a little experience I had on my last trip. I was on 110s, and the two guys I went with were on conventional skis, but were both def intermediates. It was clear that one of the guys was a bit ahead of the other, and about where he needed to be to learn how to turn around his pole plant in a very direct way down the fall line. I tried to demonstrate what he needed to do on my boards, but just could not get the turn quite right for him. In desperation, I grabbed his poles and bingo, the demo was clear. BUT. The turns I was making with the poles were different from skiboard turns. More unweighting and less flow.
          Funny how it immediately came back to me the moment I grabbed the poles. That is muscle memory from ten years ago!
          Frankly, I was glad to get it done and hand the poles back , but the turns were DIFFERENT.
          Crossbow (go to dream board)
          Most everything else over time.
          Go Android

          Comment


          • #6
            The pole thing... I had a very similar experience on my school's ski trip this year. We were in les menuires in france, jumping onto a big airbag. Of course, to avoid possibly bursting it or impaling oneself, we had to leave our poles at the top. Once our group was finished, we skied back down, poleless, got a chairlift up, and skied down to get our poles. It was a very interesting experience, because right at once, I was involuntarily skiboarding my 140cm skis. It was fun. Way more fun than skiing them, but the strong setback made things a little sketchy. The moment I got the poles back into my hands, I was a skier again.
            Before that I had been thinking why I even skiboarded, because there really wasn't much I couldn't do on skis that i could on skiboards, but this whole experience instantly made me remember that unique skiboard feeling, and the feeling of freedom it brings with it.
            Line Jedis
            Line Bullets
            '11 KTP's
            2xFF cams
            '11 silver receptors
            Full Tilt Booters

            Comment


            • #7
              yes pole plant initiated turns are different to hopped turns, but they are both originally a taught turn from skiing. Every turn we do comes from skiing. There is not 1 turn that a skiboarder does that is not a ski turn. Maybe we want our sport to be stand alone different so much that we overlook how similar it is to skiing.
              Rockered Condors/Bomber Elite 2's
              Spruce 125LE's/Tyrolia attack 13 bindings

              Comment


              • #8
                maybe what we perceive is different it actually the feel we get from skiboards, but this feel does not come from technique, its coming from the equipment.
                Rockered Condors/Bomber Elite 2's
                Spruce 125LE's/Tyrolia attack 13 bindings

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by graeme View Post
                  yes pole plant initiated turns are different to hopped turns, but they are both originally a taught turn from skiing. Every turn we do comes from skiing. There is not 1 turn that a skiboarder does that is not a ski turn. Maybe we want our sport to be stand alone different so much that we overlook how similar it is to skiing.

                  maybe what we perceive is different it actually the feel we get from skiboards, but this feel does not come from technique, its coming from the equipment.
                  I think Graeme is getting to the core of what I am trying to say ,actually ... coming at it from another angle ... I think skiboarding is a style of skiing , graeme is quite correct , that there is no turn that I do on skiboards that was not orginally a skiing turn ... what I am pointing out is that our equipment ( short planks , tight turn radius , wide shape center mount position ) are conducive to a particular style of skiing where that style becomes the norm for us , where it is not the norm for our brothers and sisters on the long planks .. it is style of skiing in which we are riding without poles...
                  lately what I have been doing is actually to incorporate some of the things I do with poles in hand to my poleless riding on skiboards .. the techniques transfer quite well and actually lead to a different look to my poleless riding which "looks " more like how skiers ride WITH poles. I guess what I am trying to say is what Graeme says .. the whole tool box of skiing can also be applied to skiboarding ... as skiboarders who ride almost exclusively without poles in hand , it might be useful to try riding with poles in hands as an experiment and learn pole planting and unweighting skills just to get the hang of it , then throw the poles away again and see if you can apply the same techniques to your skiboarding ... on the flip side of the coin . .skiers can learn alot as well throwing away their poles and riding their skis without them and learning how NOT to unweight and hop the rear of their skis around but really FEEL how they can steer their skis without a pole plant to initiate their turns.... a lot of stuff to explore .... in the end our poleless skiboard riding will be the better for it .. and if we are a skier our riding WITH poles will also be better....

                  more here ...
                  http://www.skiboardsonline.com/forum...ead.php?t=7860

                  AND a nice response posted by Wayne Wong on a newschooler thread hating on skiboarders in 2008

                  "Quoting waynewong from Jan 1 2008 9:10:40:
                  what a f**ked up thread...

                  I pose this question -

                  What is the difference between skiboarding and skiing with "no-poles' (which is the new pink this season)//



                  Al you haters are clueless as to the orgins of you beloved newschool skiing and spewing intolerant hate towards this group of misguided snowlovers speaks volumes to your own worthyness.

                  1. Skiboarding WAS in the x-games before freestyle skiing was (there was a skier-cross back then)
                  2. Most of those orginal x-game skiboard athletes went on the pioneer newschool skiing


                  I repeat, and I would love a debate on this subject, how the f**k is skiboarding ANY different than skiing without poles - Oh the length? I See morns who are 5'10" skiing 140cm skis without poles all the time.

                  Don't hate, appreciate -

                  Peace - Waynewong - x-games class of 99,00, 01 skiboarding and skiing "

                  so who the hell is Wayne Wong ?.. for you youngsters who don't know .. he is one of my heros ...
                  iconic Asian freestyle skier from the early days ...
                  http://www.greatoutdoors.com/blogs/g...eestyle-skiing



                  Wayne Wong is now working with Anton Wilson promoting the Anton glider suspension system for skis ... and is based out of Alpine Meadows..
                  Hey Wendell .. I think Wayne Wong and you look alike , he could be your brother !

                  Boards :
                  Blunt Xl, DLP, Spliff, Condor, Rockered Condor , Slingshot, Sherpa, Icelantic Shaman
                  Boots
                  K2 BFC 100 Grip walk sole , Dynafit CR Radical AT boot, Ride Insano Snowboard boots
                  Bindings:
                  Zero Pro Non release Binding
                  Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
                  Spruce Riser with Attack 14 GW /AT binding
                  Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)
                  Rocker and Sbol Soft Boot Bindings.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    exactly Jack, the style is kinda dictated by our equipment. Like you say using poles for a while is a great learnig tool for initiating our turns, it becomes almost a trigger mechanism. When i am riding the slopes i stilldo exactlt the same with my hands as i would with poles, but in a less emphasised way.
                    Rockered Condors/Bomber Elite 2's
                    Spruce 125LE's/Tyrolia attack 13 bindings

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ha!, It's been a while since I heard the "pepsi generation" theme song!

                      Jack, you may be on to something. I think Wendell and Wayne may well be one and the same person! You know, the whole alter-ego thing...Clark Kent and Superman, Peter Parker and Spiderman, Bruce Wayne, Batman, etc.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Matt, Dave and Talon practicing their hop turns http://revel8skiboards.com/files/the...I_7981.MOV.WMV

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Jack.... try this, its real hard to describe, but the whole point of a pole plant is to get the shoulders in the right place, so, without poles, kinda drop your shoulder into the turn, and turn around it. I will try to grab some video in March and post it here. Its odd, because without the poles, it feels unnatural, but it is actually exactly what skiers (who get it) do with their upper bodies.
                          BTW.... HUGE respect for Wayne Wong
                          On second thoughts, who needs an anal style freak like me... just enjoy LOL.
                          Crossbow (go to dream board)
                          Most everything else over time.
                          Go Android

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My long lost brother Wayne..... Couldn't tame his hair either. The hop turn video is great for new skiboarders to view. Pole plants without them in my hands just don't cut it for me. I think one of the issues is in moguls, I tend to actually put a slight amount of weight on the pole since I don't ski them fast. This is something I need to work on next time out to analize what's going on. I think it's just not the same doing everything from the legs and hips.
                            Now: 08 Sherpa's (2), Atomic 120's, 2013 125 Protos, 125 LEs, 2014 Sherpas, Osprey protos, 2015 Blunt XL's, 2016 Ospreys, Ethan Too twintip skis,2017 Shredfest One of kind Spliffs, 2018 Crossbows
                            Bindings: Spruce Risers and Tyrolia LD12's
                            Boots: Full Tilt Booters, Tecnica Agent 110
                            History: Atomic shorty's, Sporten, Groove Taxis, Head 94's, ALPs, Spruce 120 Blue boards, Custom Lacroixs, Rocker Condors, 08 Summit 110's, Hagan offlimits 133's, Rossi 130's, 2011 Summit Marauders

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I feel like a Forum gaper. I read these posts but rarely sign on and write anything. Just want to tell you prolific posters I have learned alot from reading this stuff - even if I only understand a fraction of it. Like the proverbial drinking water from a fire hydrant. At least some of it makes more sense than it would have this time last year when I couldn't even spell skiboard. thx - m

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