rocker/flat/early rise revolution?

[Roussel]

so if anyone has been paying attention to the snowboard industry, you'll notice that most boards now come with a rocker/flat rocker.

its spreading to the ski industry, where rossignol's line of avenger 74 skis have "reverse camber" (which is really just an early rise, and not a real reverse camber)

in our local ski magazine, an anonymous rep from a big name ski manufacturer says that within the next 5 years, all their skis will have some sort of rocker/flat rocker/reverse camber/early rise/hybrid rocker.

the idea is not simply to allow for better float in powder, but also so make turns easier, and pivoting easier also. even some world cup DH skis now have an early rise to them.

[Dave Bloom]

Do you think the design would not work with skiboards, or at least most skiboard designs, due to the length?

[MitchK]

It would be interesting to see.

On something like the 120/sherpa it could make them feel more nimble, but with the same surface area to float, and the same front/back stability.

Might even be feasable on the shorter boards too, but I'm no expert.

[SkaFreak]

I've had some ideas...but I don't think they're ever going to come to fruition. I have a design for a board that I think would handle like a KTP under foot and in powder would have more surface area than the Sherpas for the soft stuff.

[jjue]

Basically , as I see it what happens with the current rockered boards .. is similar to what Skafreak talks about .. when i watch folks on rockered skis in firm snow .it is obvious that the amount of ski in contact with the snow is much shorter in length then the entire length of the ski and guys are turning on a much smaller center portion of the ski .. thus effectively shortening the ski and making it more like a short ski in firm snow .. in pow the entire surface area of the ski is in the powder creating float and because of the rockered shape ,this leads to easy turning in pow ... this is a very useful and innovative design with long skis and snowboards. In the skiboard world if you take a 110 or below board and do this . .the effectve area in contact with the firm snow is too short .. with our short skiboards we need all the length we can muster for firm snow and then use that entire length in soft snow as well . I do think that there is role for something the size of the Sherpa or perhaps the Icelantic Scout to be rockered and providing the firm snow experience of the KTP and the surface area in pow of a Sherpa or beyond .....that might be a fun board.

[valmorel]

One of the huge advantages of reverse camber is that it allows much greater sidecut. Why? Because on firm snow, the 'grabby' tails are lifted clear of the imperfections they so like to catch in. Put the ski on edge, and the length of edge being engaged increases as the angle of lean goes up.
I have an old pair of Summit 110s with 2mm only of camber and they are the least 'grabby' ride of all my boards. I also have a pair of proto 120s with less than half the camber of the production model. I like them best of all my 120s.
Message: camber needs to be way less than now.
Voice in the wilderness?

EDIT... Just remembered, my soft ALPs also have very little camber and also dont 'catch' anywhere as much as my stiffer ones.

[jjue]

Here is a nice explanation of what rockered , reverse camber does for skis . A guy on reverse camber rockered ski at a 188 length has an effective edge on firm snow of around 127cm whereas a traditional ski of the same length would have a 162cm effective edge on firm snow .

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com...cts-ski-length

What Valmorel says above as it pertains to skiboards is quite true , I think .
In the skiboard length we can get many of the benefits of a reverse camber rockered long ski , by reducing the camber in a soft flexing torsionally rigid skiboard while still retaining the ability to use most of the effective edge of the skiboard as we lean it over. I have watched guys on long skis with reverse camber and rockered tips and tails and No matter how far those guys edge that 188 cm ski they are not really engaging the tips and tails and really turning on only that 127cm effective edge . this is because of the extreme nature of the reverse camber and the extreme nature of the rocker in the tips and the tails . The point is that because of the very short length of skiboards we do not have to go so extreme in REVERSING camber and putting extreme rocker in the tips and the tails .. By softening the flex of the skiboard and also dropping the camber to minimal or zero camber as Valmorel has pointed out we can accomplish the same effect with less loss of effective edge.

ps . here is a secret .. what the guys on rockered skis are doing is skiing a longboard skiboard on firm snow , and then going back up to their big long skis in pow ! !

[Manlig]

Finally, things are sounding more promising. Whenever I see the rockered or reverse camber threads, everyone seems to be against it due to the loss of effetive edge. However, LESS camber sounds good. What are some of the boards out there that have less camber right out of the box?

And forgive me for asking- but I've heard lots of people refer to "soft ALPs" are they different from the ALPs?

It'd be cool to see soft and zero-camber versions of our favorite boards- it sounds promising.

[jjue]

Manling , great question , having ridden a number of skiboards.. I would say the two boards which come closest to me for a lower camber , soft flexing board are the original 2007 ALP (which is still sold on SBOL) and the Condor .
To me the attraction of the Condor which is my favorite skiboard is that it performs like a rockered board in deep pow . it is probably the softest flexing of any skiboard on the planet , yet has great torsional rigidity , in soft snow the tips and the tails flex or rocker upward and the rider sinks in the center of the board , essentially causing a rockered effect, this makes it much easier to ride in deep pow from a center position without putting having to put so much weight to the back of the board which is necessary in stiffer boards.
On firm snow , although the board does seem to have the same camber as other Revel8 boards, because it so flexy , when you stand on the board with your weight you essentially easily decamber the board and it becomes like a zero camber board , very easy to spin and turn . As Valmorel says riding flat it seems very turny on a small base , lean it over and you start engaging the whole edge and have it all available.

Please remember that a soft flexing board is not for everyone .. a nice firm ,stiff edged board on firm snow is a super carving experience and different feeling than a softie ... I used to really prefer that feeling and hated mushy soft flexing boards.. but now have become "big softie" go figure ! !

[Roussel]

i think flat camber seems like a good idea for skiboards.

the real reason for a camber is help propel you and pop/spring you out of the end of a turn/carve so you can more quickly switch edge and get into the next turn/carve.

a flat camber would allow boards to flex more into a rocker shape when in powder, and keep the effective edge on groomed run.

thoughts?

@Manlig i believe there was a year of old ALPs that where softer than others.

[SkaFreak]

ps . here is a secret .. what the guys on rockered skis are doing is skiing a longboard skiboard on firm snow , and then going back up to their big long skis in pow ! !

There's a reason I ride a pair of 174 Armada JJ's with inserts for the Spruce risers sometimes now Underfoot those things feel surprisingly like Sherpas.

[valmorel]

Finally, things are sounding more promising. Whenever I see the rockered or reverse camber threads, everyone seems to be against it due to the loss of effetive edge. However, LESS camber sounds good. What are some of the boards out there that have less camber right out of the box?

And forgive me for asking- but I've heard lots of people refer to "soft ALPs" are they different from the ALPs?

It'd be cool to see soft and zero-camber versions of our favorite boards- it sounds promising.

To the best of my knowledge, the only low camber boards 'out of the box' are the soft ALP and the Sherpa. I dont know about sub 100cm boards though.

[valmorel]

the real reason for a camber is help propel you and pop/spring you out of the end of a turn/carve so you can more quickly switch edge and get into the next turn/carve.

.

The real reason for camber is to put downward pressure on the tips and tails when the boards are compressed flat on the snow to provide directional stability. Originally it was to stop long skis oscillating leading to crossed tips. As is usual with these things, a whole mythology has built up around it, mostly hopelessly misinformed, but hey, who cares if it works, right?

[Roussel]

The real reason for camber is to put downward pressure on the tips and tails when the boards are compressed flat on the snow to provide directional stability. Originally it was to stop long skis oscillating leading to crossed tips. As is usual with these things, a whole mythology has built up around it, mostly hopelessly misinformed, but hey, who cares if it works, right?

my bad, was told differently.

but nontheless, is camber really needed on skiboards?

[valmorel]

A little seems to work well, helps the edge hook up quickly into a carve and gives directional stability. The hardest job here is getting the boards manufactured with the correct camber. The problem revolves around the fact that the moulded camber is not the final camber, the boards de-cambering somewhat when they come out of the moulds. Wood cores are especially problematic because wood is just not consistent. Foam cores work much better for consistency, but not so good as a finished ski.
Few years ago, I de-cambered a Revolt down to 4mm with heat, stress, and time (took 24 hours). It seemed a much nicer ride for it, but damn, went right back to original camber the first time I hot waxed them.
Then the camber tends to drop in use over time, though this has never happened to me with a R8 product. My Summits lost about 8mm of camber over their first season (and are all the better for it), then stabilised at about 3mm.
In short, there is an element of guesswork involved.