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  • Crossbow/Slingshot vs Twin Tip Skis

    Are 115/116 Rockered/Cambered/Rockered or Rockered/Cambered boards the epitome and next wave of evolution in skiboards or is longer better as for many skiers?

    As an East Coast small mountain rider the Revolts have been a go to board, stomping most conditions. This season has been a record snowfall where I managed to make it out to the hill for two big powder days, an amazing time was had on the 2015 Rockered Condors with polarizing environmental graphics and beloved polar bear, to this day I think it's one of the best looking boards to ever come out of RVL*8. They just chewed up anything in front of them without worry of digging in or catching an edge, I explored parts of the hill I've never even seen before though that could be in part to some much needed thinning out by the resort. One thing that has always pushed my limits with skiboards is tracking at speed, especially nearing the end of the day, and balance. The RC's are the king at sucking the last ounce of strength to maintain both despite the ability to ride over most obstacles. The Revolts aid in balance yet I'm still having to rein them in as they can still be twitchy underfoot, unless I'm carving. I've had the time of my life riding what I do but there's always been this reluctant admittance that I'm missing something, that I shouldn't have to work as hard as I do to just hold it together until I get back on the lift to recover.

    There's certainly no doubt that skiboards have made significant strides in performance and appearance over 20+ years, an evolution of the sport in many respects. They have slowly expanded beyond the confines of the original box definition of 99cm with the next best board to rule them all or perhaps rule in their own unique way. We've edged upward and outward in a nonlinear progression to 100cm with Blunt XL's, 101 KTP's, 103 Rumspringa, 104 Sticky Icky Icky, 105 Revolts, 109 Spliff, 110 DLP's, ALP's, Condors and RC's now into the territory of 115 and 116 with the Crossbow and Slingshot all the way up to 130cm with the Spruce longboard variants. Forums are not the hubs they used to be, attention spans have dwindled and I'm still the anomaly at my hill that I've always been. Are we still this small group of riders that some how have found each other and a unique way to slide down a hill or is the sport growing in numbers?

    Fast forward, or in my case rewind and catch up as the past 2 seasons 2018 & 2019 were a bust here with no snow so the sport fell to the wayside and I've been off the grid/forum, it seems we have new kids on the block, not the band from the 80's-90's, but the Crossbow and Slingshot by Spruce. I've read the 14 page thread and others, I'm eager to try them out myself. Are either of these the unicorns that a 1 board quiver is made of or are we still feeling out what could be the next best thing? Will the next board be 125 or 135cm?

    Watching a lot of Stomp It Tutorials on YouTube from the basics like carving to simple pops, ollies, jumps or butters, overcoming your fear and just plain just having fun on the mountain has really expanded the possibilities of what I've been missing all while taking my own self assumed ability level down several levels to a comfortable intermediate despite spending a large portion of my days on the black runs off groomers. Even in a skiers world, amidst all the options, there's still no singular quiver board that does it all.

    I'm at a crossroads, wondering if the Crossbows or Slingshots will up my riding prowess or should I make the jump to sub 160cm Twin Tip skis like the K2 Sight's and venture into the unknown hoping for better stability and tracking while giving up some maneuverability. I appreciate the feedback from Bill on the Armada Triple J's and Jack(jjue) for his in-depth review and analysis on everything he rides.

    A great insight written by Joe Nevin from bumpsforboomers regarding ski length:

    Several years of experience has shown us that when our mogul and powder clinic participants ski on shorter skis (150cm – 160cm for men and 146cm – 156cm for women) – irrespective of their height and weight – that they have substantially better results (better balance, better speed control, less fatigue, more confidence, lower anxiety, and ability to ski more challenging off-piste terrain). And, with no apparent downside for stability from the shorter ski length.

    Is there anyone here that has ridden adult twin tip skis and made the transition to skiboards with zero regrets or the other way around?
    Boards: RVL*8 '08 Revolt Chicken's, Canon M7 Black, Line Fly 4 post
    Bindings: Line FF Pro, Groove Red X1
    Gear: Dalbello CRX Freeride CarveX, Bern Baker Hard Hat, VZ Fishbowl's & Fubar's, Anon Comrade

  • #2
    First of all - I also love that channel and found that a lot of the stuff applies to skiboarding. In fact just minutes ago I posted about it on the FB group

    Second - I have been also thinking about twin tip skis. They seem to behave a lot like skiboards, but giving the ability to do even more. But then there's the bigger trauma chance as well, and I am 38, knees are not as strong, so for the moment I am staying on skiboards... If I was 20 I would have probably jumped right in.

    As for the Crossbows... I have the Crossbows and Eman Uprise which is quite similar to the Revolts you have. The Crossbows are awesome, but they are not the single-quiver skiboard. They are actually not as good in the powder as I was expecting and they do not work for all those tricks you are seeing in Stomp It - they are way too thin and fragile for those. They do offer more stability and higher speeds on steep slopes and bad conditions. So I am riding both, depending on where I go. Others can tell you more about the even longer sherpas.

    For me, if there is a single-quiver board, it will be something in between the two boards I have. Rockered/cambered, length around 110, not as stiff as the Emans, but not as flexi as the Crossbows. From what I've read the closest to this specs are the Spliffs, but they are too wide, and I don't really think I am going to enjoy a super wide skiboard. But if you are fine with the width perhaps try them?

    Comment


    • #3
      Great feedback, thanks boyanr!

      I hear you about the concern of knee injury, I'm 37, so I don't see taking too many risks. I generally play it safe but want to be more playful when out.

      Most of what I've been reading is that the crossbows and slingshots are simply the best but best is subjective to preferred terrain, riding style and conditions. It's nice to hear someone pointing out the short comings especially in comparison to what I've been watching on Stomp It. Not to say I can do those things but it just looks fun and they make it look easy so definitely something I need to work on to expand my skill and hill enjoyment, if it's something I can accomplish on skiboards with confidence. The RC's, like the Spliff's are just too wide, I think, to really finesse them though it probably has more to do with my own capabilities, who knows.

      With the lack of skiboard videos, 75% of what you see is park riding then open groomers at speed or some big powder stashes which is great but I get nothing from it and I have no local riders to go skiboarding with to learn from or advanced skiers for that matter.

      I'm just tired in all aspects of trying to keep upright when switching terrain or coming off a drop between what I currently ride based on current skill and confidence. I don't expect one board to do it all but I would like one board to do most everything well.

      Perhaps a stiffer under foot but soft tips/tails rockered/cambered/rockered 130cm board with 135mm tips and tails and 105mm underfoot? A hybrid rockered/cambered Revolt/Sticky XXL?

      Maybe I I just need to drop $300 on twin tip skis and see where I stand.
      Boards: RVL*8 '08 Revolt Chicken's, Canon M7 Black, Line Fly 4 post
      Bindings: Line FF Pro, Groove Red X1
      Gear: Dalbello CRX Freeride CarveX, Bern Baker Hard Hat, VZ Fishbowl's & Fubar's, Anon Comrade

      Comment


      • #4
        Well I chose to be able to go full-Jerry mode and be relatively safe, rather than be cautious at all times with the long skis haha

        Crossbows are great - they very EASY to ride in all conditions and very fun. They gave me the confidence to go on black runs no matter the snow condition, and basically to hit any slope in the resort. They should do well in the powder when setback, but I never tried them like this. They are just too thin for the freestyle stuff. So that is why I got a second pair that are good for the park. So if I am planning to hit the park during the day - I get them. Otherwise, I get the Crossbows. Works for me.

        I guess it will be best for you to find skiboarders in your area that can let you try different models for a run or two and figure out what works for you best?

        And you can always rent twin tips for a day or two and see how it goes?

        Comment


        • #5
          I've only met one other skiboarder in the province 6 years ago and he lives 6 hours away plus he rides Revolts as well, just Trees vs Chickens. He used to ski but wanted a shorter board that's easier to turn without all the extra weight.

          As for renting, I don't believe my resort, due to the smaller size, offers twin tips as rentals, just your standard all mountain Head ski.

          In what way do you mean the crossbows are too thin for freestyle, in that they don't have the running length spring support to pop out of simple tricks without loss of balance due to the short soft tips and tails?
          Boards: RVL*8 '08 Revolt Chicken's, Canon M7 Black, Line Fly 4 post
          Bindings: Line FF Pro, Groove Red X1
          Gear: Dalbello CRX Freeride CarveX, Bern Baker Hard Hat, VZ Fishbowl's & Fubar's, Anon Comrade

          Comment


          • #6
            Interesting post, Zman. For me the fun factor and nimbleness of skiboards is what makes me a committed skiboarder. I have experimented with going back to the twin tip skis and for me while they are more stable at speed and in crud . I prefer the fun and nimbleness of skiboards. Sort of like riding a sports car vs a big SUV I guess. As I get older however , I do find that I get tired out trying to keep my balance in difficult terrain . My secret weapon is to now ride skiboards that I can ride with a set back to allow me to sink the tail and get the tips up in powder. For me this is more important than rocker. I have gravitated for example back to riding a regular Condor with custom inserts to set back my Spruce risers or Spliffs with set back inserts vs my previous Rockered Condors. I just find riding these boards easier and less tiring then trying to remain centered on the RCs. If there is less pow I tend to ride the DLPs also with set back because I like the narrower waist in firmer snow ,yet I still get performance in moderate pow and crud with the new set back inserts. . It is way easier for me to ride that way in difficult variable soft snow or pow. then center mounted. Of the Spruce boards the Sherpa is definitely the most like a twin tip if ridden in the set back inserts and is the most stable skiboard while still having skiboard nimbleness
            I however , still prefer a shorter board most of the time just because it is more fun . I like the Slingshot because it is the first skiboard that for me can be ridden on the center inserts yet still gives me the feeling that I am riding set back . That is because of it's unusual design with wide round rockered tip and flat narrower non rockered tail. I like it better then the Crossbow in all conditions . Seems more stable for me the more difficult the conditions. For heavier and larger riders looking for the ultimate stability and yet retaining some skiboard feel over a twin tip , I would go with a rear mounted Sherpa . The Sherpa is stiffer and more torsionally rigid then the Slingshot or Crossbow . uber wide at the tip yet narrow enough at the waist to get on edge well A classic in between longboard skiboard.
            Boards :
            Spliffs
            DLPs
            Condors
            Slingshots
            Sherpa

            Boot:
            K2 BFC 100

            Bindings:
            Zero Pro Non release Binding
            Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
            Spruce ProPrime Plus Binding/Riser with Attack 13 GW binding
            Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks Jack! A great post and insight with so many interesting facets of how a skiboard can be ridden and one verses another. Fun and nimble is what I'm after as my local hill 2 hrs away is only 750' so bombing the groomer runs in 1-2 minutes for another 5-10min lift ride depending on the wind is not how I want to spend my day. Skiboards are excellent for exploring off piste in tight terrain, they even excel at it plus I like to play in powder stashes or spring corn style crud along the sides of runs most everyone else skips over. I'd like more fore/aft stability, improving my own skills and confidence will aid in that no doubt, to a degree.

              I've been watching a lot of the Skiessentials YouTube video comparisons over the last day and while I'm gravitating to a few of the boards that would come close to what I'm looking for such as the ability to ski all terrain but with an aptitude for small mountain off piste that's highly maneuverable, playful tips and tails yet maintains stability, is wide enough for some powder yet has good edge control for east coast conditions plus a short turning radius and isn't too long (sub 160cm, 150cm would be ideal). So far that single quiver board doesn't exist though the Fischer My Ranger 102 FR is close, geared more toward women they don't specifically categorize it as such unless you venture off their website to find more info. In either case it's a nice looking board albeit at 159cm. The Rossignol Freeride Sky 7 HD is perhaps an even closer option with 156cm, 98mm underfoot, lightweight and only a 11m turning radius. I love the features in the Atomic Bent Chetler 100 also, I just wish it was a tad shorter though never having ridden skis since I was 12, perhaps 164cm is short, lol.

              I certainly don't foresee ditching skiboards at any point in my life, I've been into it since 2002 and I love riding what I have, just looking for possible options to expand my fun.
              Boards: RVL*8 '08 Revolt Chicken's, Canon M7 Black, Line Fly 4 post
              Bindings: Line FF Pro, Groove Red X1
              Gear: Dalbello CRX Freeride CarveX, Bern Baker Hard Hat, VZ Fishbowl's & Fubar's, Anon Comrade

              Comment


              • #8
                The short length of our skiboards is definitely a double edged sword. On the one hand we get all that fun and maneuverability, but on the other, itís hard work keeping in balance, especially in variable terrain.

                To be honest, Iíve given up trying to ride my skiboards all over the mountain now. With my age, back and knees, there are better options for me. I have the Ethan II Head twin tips in 160 cm which I use for general cruising and exploring. When the going gets tough I break out my trusty Sherpas, and I still have my Ickys for trees and bumps.

                My wife road skiboards for almost twenty years, but a few seasons ago she switched to 140 cm Vokl twin tips after her hip surgery. She lost a little of the fun factor, but thatís made up for by the decrease in fatigue and pain.

                It was a hard lesson to learn, but all mountain skiboarding requires a level of athleticism I no longer process.
                Just these, nothing else !

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm appreciate for the feedback you guys are providing as a commonality is apparent here and that's stability over varied terrain, something I really struggle with depending on the snow conditions, and what you've given up or changed to maintain nimbleness and maneuverability as much as possible.

                  Mild quad burn and having to stop a few times to get down an off piste run, especially when worn out, simple transitions like dropping back into groomers from a side run lip makes it tough to maintain an upright posture. While I generally keep it together, it's a fight to the end at which point I can barely keep the boards tracking straight hence the search for solutions or other board options. Right now I'm leaning in the direction of the Rossignol Sky 7 HD's as a possible end of season purchase. I sent an e-mail off to Rossignol earlier giving them the lowdown doctors report of what and where I ride, weight, height, age and current riding style and what I'm looking for in a ski (nimble, easy maneuverability for trees or technical terrain due to the nature of the small hill, excellent edge control on ice, short turn radius for quicker shorter carves that I'm used to on cambered skiboards and decent float for those rare all out powder days(I'm talking about 30cm at best here) plus better stability and tracking yet is still playful enough to learn a few tricks), all of which the Sky 7 HD dishes up but I wanted better feedback from them if a 156cm ski with higher rockered tip and mild tail and shorter running length underfoot will work based on my size. In many respects the Sky 7 HD at 156cm length is very skiboard like just with extra rockered tip and tail length. Without riding it I can't compare but it may fit the bill of what I'm after.
                  Boards: RVL*8 '08 Revolt Chicken's, Canon M7 Black, Line Fly 4 post
                  Bindings: Line FF Pro, Groove Red X1
                  Gear: Dalbello CRX Freeride CarveX, Bern Baker Hard Hat, VZ Fishbowl's & Fubar's, Anon Comrade

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well... what a rabbit hole ski shopping turned into, I thought deciding between skiboards was hard.

                    I was mostly set on the Rossi Sky 7 HD but questioned some hardpack performance. Reaching out to Skiessentials.com, with all their great YouTube and website comparisons, reviews and in-depth replies to posted comments from others looking for advise, Matt suggested the Atomic Bent Chetler 100 (127.5-100-118, rockered/cambered/rockered 16.4m radius @ 164cm), without me even mentioning them, based on my ability, current riding terrain, hill conditions and areas I want to improve on, mostly funability!

                    While an older (60+) rider at my local short run hill rides the BC 100 exclusively on groomers, they're kinda a do everything ski for a lot of people. I'm not sure what kept me looking as I stumbled into the Salomon QST 92, another great all mountain ski with great edge hold though perhaps a little less pop for slarving or buttering around as the 100's yet still very playful and damp over bumps and crud, something the 100's lack. Just when you think you have your mind made up, the less reviewed and raved Line Chronic's (129-95-120, rockered/cambered/rockered 13-15m radius @ 164cm) were calling with the ability to play, pop, stomp, jib or carve your way down the hill. A long time ski by Line, similar in design as the 100's with 5mm camber, they have a deeper sidecut and fully wrapped metal edge which may contribute to better hold on wind swept ice or icy crust where as the BC's edge stops near the tip and tail rise.

                    So, sticking closer to skiboarding roots I dropped a pair of Line Chronic 164's in my cart for $329.99 CDN, slept on it to awake to a $20 off discount code in my e-mail or $23 savings if you factor in tax. Much like buying a house, they say to stop looking after the fact yet I can't help but wonder what the Bent Chantler would be like in comparison.

                    Looking forward to next season already to just try something different yet with skiboards in tow.
                    Boards: RVL*8 '08 Revolt Chicken's, Canon M7 Black, Line Fly 4 post
                    Bindings: Line FF Pro, Groove Red X1
                    Gear: Dalbello CRX Freeride CarveX, Bern Baker Hard Hat, VZ Fishbowl's & Fubar's, Anon Comrade

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by zman View Post
                      In what way do you mean the crossbows are too thin for freestyle, in that they don't have the running length spring support to pop out of simple tricks without loss of balance due to the short soft tips and tails?
                      first of all - you will probably break them quickly, they bend a lot on landings, hitting the riser plate and a bad landing on a bigger jump can easily damage them
                      also, yes, more difficult to pop because of no camber and too much flex.

                      As I said, something in between my two skiboards might actually be the perfect thing. I am even thinking about a custom built one, we have several custom ski manufacturers around here, maybe I should ask for a quote

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        ​​​​​​Good to know, thanks for sharing. I've read a few others mentioning the riser contacting the top sheet but I wasn't aware it was a zero camber/flat board. I assumed it was just a longer version of the SII though there's nothing in the specs on the crossbow of camber which is a shame. I'm sure still a great board depending on ones riding style.

                        The custom board sounds interesting for sure, if the price is right.

                        I couldn't resist a crazy deal on a pair of Atomic Bent Chetler 100 164cm, they showed up yesterday with free next day shipping. It's still a little unnerving even standing on them in relation to skiboards as it's all I really know, short, fun and nimble. Next season will be an interesting mix.

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                        Boards: RVL*8 '08 Revolt Chicken's, Canon M7 Black, Line Fly 4 post
                        Bindings: Line FF Pro, Groove Red X1
                        Gear: Dalbello CRX Freeride CarveX, Bern Baker Hard Hat, VZ Fishbowl's & Fubar's, Anon Comrade

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          well z-man i know what your going through. I'm getting worn out in a few hours now. I read some things over last summer and applied those techniques this last riding season.The thing i read was.....a lazy ski is a twitchy ski....a lazy ski can be a hooky ski....So this year i concentrated on keeping an edge all the time. Changing edge every couple seconds, and never flat footing. Results were best season ever, only one good wreck and it was a good one. On the other side i was very tired. i'm skiing lots of variable terrain after early morning first trax. Skiing nine in the morning to about one thirty in the afternoon and i'm done. legs are going south and also mentally. No spring chicken here and it is work.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I've enjoyed reading this thread . Here are some thoughts I put up a few years ago with other folks weighing in about skiboards vs long skis.
                            https://forums.skiboardsonline.com/f...ards-skiboards

                            I do think one of the issues is the fact that 140 to 160 cm length skis are designated as youth or woman's skis even though I think many would be suitable for bigger guys like myself and others looking for skiboard like options . Many here have experimented with using woman's skis for heavier guys . Some skis work and some don't . One of the issues is the torsional rigidiity for heavier people causing the shorter boards deIsigned for women or lighter folks to wash out on firm snow.
                            I ride a 161cm Icelantic Shaman that was originally the only size Shaman that was produced . Later years Icelantic coming out with the 171 and 181 size versions . Just like Icelantic's first board the 140 cm Icelantic Scout, these original short skis were very torsionally rigid and meant for guys . In fact they later came out with softer versions of the Scout for women and juniors. Purpose built short skis torsionally rigid enough in firm snow for heavier riders are very few and far between if you can find them at all . I think there is a real need for long skis in this category. Icelantic as a company went away from torsionally rigid short skis built and planned for men or heavier riders and have gone to traditional length and flex designs purpose built in lengths and flex for heavier and lighter riders ie woman and men like all the traditional ski companies with the shorter lengths softer and meant for lighter weight women or juniors. The Scout is no longer made . You can still buy the Icelantic Shaman in the 161 length and other lengths .. It is very unusual , no rocker and traditional camber but a fish type shape ,wide tip and tapered tail and mounted to the rear . Very stiff and torsionally rigid .Stiffness is more like a DLP or Spliff as opposed to a Crossbow or Slingthost . It carves like a demon on firm snow and yet doubles a a super pow and crud ski. It is very difficult to bury the tip riding leaning forward fast in pow and crud and for a long ski is super easy to turn with a 12m turn radius. . . The skiboard that most resembles in design is a rear mounted Sherpa, although the taper from the tip to the tail is more dramatic then the Sherpa and more like a Slingshot.
                            Here is a link to the Shaman page on the Icelantic web site.
                            https://www.icelanticskis.com/produc...man-chronicles
                            Boards :
                            Spliffs
                            DLPs
                            Condors
                            Slingshots
                            Sherpa

                            Boot:
                            K2 BFC 100

                            Bindings:
                            Zero Pro Non release Binding
                            Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
                            Spruce ProPrime Plus Binding/Riser with Attack 13 GW binding
                            Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'd agree with you there buckeye, skiboards love being on edge, I love making short quick carves or having the ability to quickly change direction or stop. They're perfectly suited at the short run hill where I ride. There's a trade off to carving and pushing the boards hard, it quickly depletes the legs. Couple that with riding them flat and things get downright twitchy though I've always held it together. I can't compare how skis will ride in comparison.

                              Jjue, I think you nailed something that never gets talked about, at least from a marketing standpoint, aside from the Icelantic boards I've never heard of until now, and that's weight specific or task specific skis. Any form of online search for shorter skis, skis for trees, easy maneuverable skis, etc. generally returns similar results of "recommended length charts" based on age, height and weight or leads you down a forum trail of everyone saying they ride between 169-195cm skis and you should too or your skis are too short because they ride 180cm, for instance, and because you're a few pounds heavier or taller you need to go up a size. Now, that said, there are times when people are comparing a specific ski and people are wondering what size to buy based on rider profile, skiing ability and/or terrain such as park vs groomers do you get more genuine feedback as some skis tend to ride short due to flex, rocker, camber, dampening, edge length or carving radius.

                              ​​It's like it has always been, you size a ski based on your height and weight, which I don't like as I feel forced into a shoe that may not fit my style. I should be able to buy a ski based on what I intend to do with it. As mentioned in earlier posts, I want a ski with good maneuverability for tight spaces, like I'm used to on skiboards; short carving radius; great East Coast all mountain performance especially on ice yet with will be good for 6-12" of snow.

                              The new 2021 Line Blade is perhaps one of the most interesting and unique skis to hit the market in a long time offering exceptional performance in all aspects in which it was designed, short radius carving yet offering all mountain performance.



                              I'​​​​​d definitely recommend reading through the review on SkiEssentials. While I think Line has created a definite hit, it would be exciting if they developed a similar ski at shorter lengths (sub 169cm) like Icelantic without having to switch to the women's version as again they're generally marketed to shorter lighter riders.

                              https://www.skiessentials.com/Chairl...ns-ski-review/



                              Boards: RVL*8 '08 Revolt Chicken's, Canon M7 Black, Line Fly 4 post
                              Bindings: Line FF Pro, Groove Red X1
                              Gear: Dalbello CRX Freeride CarveX, Bern Baker Hard Hat, VZ Fishbowl's & Fubar's, Anon Comrade

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