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  • Thoughts on Skis, Longboards, Skiboards

    Here is my latest wide bodied hard boot quiver .

    These boards all have a very similar foot print . They are all fatties. 160 -150 or so in the tip
    110 to 130 in the waist and 130 to 150 in the tail , they are all ridden with a set back , with a hard shell ski boot . Side cut ranges from 12 meter to 7.2 meter to 6.5 meter . They all are meant for aggressive adult size folks and are torsionally rigid with camber and minimal to no rocker depending on the board . The Icelantic Shaman is 160 cm , the Sherpa is 130 cm and the Spliffs are 109 cm . I have been fascinated with the experimentation on this forum with short skis and folks going up in length in boards and Jeff's and other's experiments with repurposing skis meant for juniors for adult folks . I think this reopens the whole question of what are skis and what are skiboards , and what difference does length make . I have ridden all three of these boards this season and it was enlightening to me . Here are some personal reflections. I think that the sizing of long skis is all wrong and that many folks would do well to ski shorter then recommended lengths and have more fun . Interesting in this vein is this page from the bumps to boomers web site about selecting ski length for aging boomers like myself , what they say about us senior folks could also of course apply to the vast majority of recreational skiers who are not into tearing down the mountain at mach speed but more into making turns and enjoying the experience in challenging terrain like moguls and powder .

    My own particular preference is getting into three dimensional soft snow as much as possible and I have found that the wider bodied boards suit me well . All three of these rides are great fun . I ski them all very alike . I use poles and ski them all with the same style . They all seem like part of the same family tree. The Spliffs are certainly the most playful and turny , but also the least stable in variable terrain . The Icelantic Shamans are certainly way more stable in variable terrain and get less thrown around . they are easier to maintain balance but less turny in tight quarters then the Spliffs with the Sherpas landing squarely between .

    In my own mind riding all these different length skis with similar foot prints has got me thinking more and more that it in the end it really is all skiing or should I say it all is skiboarding whatever length your ride . We will all make choices based on what we want to do on the mountain .. how much we want stability in rough choppy terrain vs tight and easy turning in moguls and trees , and based on how old and decrepit you are ! I guess with modern technology the lines between skis , longboard skiboards , and skiboards proper are really being blurred and there is more in common then there has been in the past with it all beginning to seem to me like one big family !

    ps . this year I am feeling my age a lot more and get tired more in rough cruddy variable snow then I have in years past and I am gravitating more toward the Sherpas again as my sweet spot in stability vs fun ... Damn is it a pain to get decrepit and ancient .. oh well time marches on .... The crazy thing for me is that the shorter the board the more fun I have had but also the more I needed to work to maintain my balance in rough choppy cruddy terrain . Riding the shorter Spliffs though has made me a much better rider on the bigger Sherpas and the Shamans , all my skills transfer directly over to the bigger and more stable platform.
    Boards :
    Spliffs
    DLPs
    Condors
    Slingshots
    Sherpa

    Boot:
    K2 BFC 100

    Bindings:
    Zero Pro Non release Binding
    Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
    Spruce ProPrime Plus Binding/Riser with Attack 13 GW binding
    Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)

  • #2
    Originally posted by jjue View Post
    I think this reopens the whole question of what are skis and what are skiboards , and what difference does length make. . .

    All three of these rides are great fun. I ski them all very alike. I use poles and ski them all with the same style. They all seem like part of the same family tree. . .

    In my own mind riding all these different length skis with similar foot prints has got me thinking more and more that it in the end it really is all skiing or should I say it all is skiboarding whatever length your ride. . .

    I guess with modern technology the lines between skis , longboard skiboards , and skiboards proper are really being blurred and there is more in common then there has been in the past with it all beginning to seem to me like one big family!
    I pulled out these nuggets from your post - GREAT stuff!

    Comment


    • #3
      I think, partly one of the reasons there is a divide between skiing and skiboarding, is that skiing has for the most part rejected skiboarding. This rejection has reinforced separate definitions, and left a small group of people (us) not being represented in and therefore creating our own community.

      Jay Lev was not wrong when he said ''its all skiing''. Yes, it is. But also, no it isn't, because the ski tech behind the counter at the ski shop, the marketing team at a large ski company, and the ski snob in the park don't want it to be, and we don't participate in the same community as they do because of it.

      I've thought about this so much in the last few years I could write a novel, and one of the limitations we have with being so strict about the ''skiboard'' term is that the number of people who are riding ''snowblades/skiblades/shortski/miniski'' so vastly outnumber people who are ''skiboarders'' by monstrous scale. We can gather every skiboarder and yell ''ITS CALLED SKIBOARDING'' all together at the top of Whistler during the Olympics and no one would care.

      And what all this leads to, is that those people on ''snowblades/skiblades/shortski/miniski'', think the are just on baby skis until they graduate to ''normal skis'', like the ski tech told them, like the marketing team at Salomon told them, and like the ski snob told them, their reality is that community, (even if they stick to short skis and have no plans to ''graduate''), and in some ways they are right.

      The division is fabricated, it is technical, and I sometimes feel it is snobbish. But it is also a lived reality that has created our community, that has created amazing products like RVL8, Summit, Spruce, Allz, Eman, Twoowt and others, who have supported artists, riders, events all to varying degrees, that has brought together people and created friendships.

      Skiboarding is skiing, skiboarders are not skiers.
      Fox-Trotting - Thrifty Wanderlust & Adventures

      Skiboard Magazine

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Roussel View Post
        Skiboarding is skiing, skiboarders are not skiers.
        Veddy eenteresting statement.
        171cm/190lbs
        Current Favorites:
        RVL8 Yin/Yang Blunts, Spruce Sherpas (x2) & Ospreys, Coda custom Yetis v1 140
        Spruce Pro Primes w/Attack 13's (x 4), Bomber Elite 1
        Other boards I'm trying:
        Summit Custom Carbon 110, Dynastar Twin 85, Coda custom Yetis v2 145

        Comment


        • #5
          jjue - great thoughts!

          Originally posted by jjue View Post
          They are all fatties.
          You are not kidding! Those Shamans are massive...

          Originally posted by jjue View Post
          I have been fascinated with the experimentation on this forum with short skis and folks going up in length in boards and Jeff's and other's experiments with repurposing skis meant for juniors for adult folks . I think this reopens the whole question of what are skis and what are skiboards , and what difference does length make . I have ridden all three of these boards this season and it was enlightening to me . Here are some personal reflections. I think that the sizing of long skis is all wrong and that many folks would do well to ski shorter then recommended lengths and have more fun . Interesting in this vein is this page from the bumps to boomers web site about selecting ski length for aging boomers like myself , what they say about us senior folks could also of course apply to the vast majority of recreational skiers who are not into tearing down the mountain at mach speed but more into making turns and enjoying the experience in challenging terrain like moguls and powder .
          Completely agree regarding ski sizing. I think most recreational skiers are on skis that are too long for them - the skis are within the "recommended" sizing but too long. That content on Bumps for Boomer is the most comprehensive I have read regarding ski sizing. It is qualitative not quantitative, which is far more useful. I think one of the biggest factors for many people regarding ski length - at least in the East - is so-called "stability" which is often judged, at least from a test or review perspective, as stability at high speeds often in variable snow as the ultimate test. Most recreational skiers will not be piloting skis at warp speed, especially in variable snow, so the "measure" of stability from tests, etc is false. The real measure is stability at the speeds the individual skier skis at. For the West maybe one of the main factors is float in softer snow. That probably comes down to more of a surface area issue with other factors thrown in like ski longitudinal stiffness and rocker design. Moisture content of th snow where a skier primarily skis factors in too. The point again being that tests and reviews at often judging a ski's performance in soft snow at the extremes most recreational skiers won't encounter.

          Unfortunately, unless a person is well informed and an independent thinker the advice they are likely to get from the web, ski shop employees, friends, etc will be based on "conventional" wisdom and they end up on skis too long.

          Originally posted by jjue View Post
          ps . this year I am feeling my age a lot more and get tired more in rough cruddy variable snow then I have in years past and I am gravitating more toward the Sherpas again as my sweet spot in stability vs fun ... Damn is it a pain to get decrepit and ancient .. oh well time marches on .... The crazy thing for me is that the shorter the board the more fun I have had but also the more I needed to work to maintain my balance in rough choppy cruddy terrain . Riding the shorter Spliffs though has made me a much better rider on the bigger Sherpas and the Shamans , all my skills transfer directly over to the bigger and more stable platform.
          I can relate to that. I am turning 51 soon and while I am in good shape and fortunately do not have any medical problems, I am not as robust as I was younger. I don't have a way of doing a back-to-back comparison right now, but I think riding my Sherpas was physically less demanding than my 170cm K2s I currently ride. I rode my Sherpas pretty aggressively putting a lot energy into carving and charging pretty hard. I do the same on my K2s, which I have been skiing the past season and a half. Given I am not all that much older now than I was when riding Sherpas I consider age to be controlled for. Same level of fitness overall so that is controlled for too. It seems to me that I am more tired at the end of a day on the K2s than I was on the Sherpas. My K2s are pretty easy to ski but I think I expend more energy on them. My hypothesis is really due to the length - more energy to get them to carve, more energy to control a longer ski, etc. I know for sure the K2s create more torquing forces on my lower legs, especially in tougher snow conditions, like heavy wet snow and chopped up dense snow. Part of that is because my tactics are not always good and I hit things at bad angles. But, the tactics were the same on the Sherpas with far less torque.

          Originally posted by jjue View Post
          ps . this year I am feeling my age a lot more and get tired more in rough cruddy variable snow then I have in years past and I am gravitating more toward the Sherpas again as my sweet spot in stability vs fun ...
          I am actually thinking I need a pair of direct mounted Sherpas...with flat bases...maybe when I burned the ship a while back I should have kept my Sherpas even though they need some base work by a talented tuner to get them flat...
          In pursuit of Peace, Harmony and Flow.....
          Think Like a Mountain

          Boards ridden, some owned: Sherpas, Spruce 120 "STS", Blunts, DS110 custom prototypes, Rockered Condors, Revolts, DLPs, Summit Custom 110s, Summit Marauders, Head 94s, Raptor prototypes, Osprey prototypes.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by jjue View Post
            I have been fascinated with the experimentation on this forum with short skis and folks going up in length in boards and Jeff's and other's experiments with repurposing skis meant for juniors for adult folks .
            I have been as well. While I certainly don't know the whole story or have any near as much knowledge about skis and skiing as Jeff Singer at Spruce I have been thinking about the "problem" of finding shorter, highly capable skis for adults.

            Let's take a look at an example use case: adult male, average height, average weight, solid advanced intermediate aspiring to become an advanced skier. Confident skier with good skills, but from a non-technical (he was self-taught) skiing background. Lucky and skis 15-25 days per year in the Northeast. Takes 1 to 2 trips per year out West and skis 3 or so days each trip at a resort in Colorado or Tahoe area. Mainly skis groomed terrain but is starting to get into bumps and tree skiing. Not much chance to ski in powder. He skis anything that is on the mountain when he shows up and wants a ski that will get him through even though it won't always be railing it in every condition. Requires release bindings. Skis at a "spirited" pace at times, but more enjoys making turns and really flowing down the mountain. Wants an all-mountain ski with a mid-fat waist (by East Coast terms) somewhere in the 85mm to 95mm range. His goal is to get the shortest skis possible (he is thinking 145-155cm) that will meet his needs and allow him to ski safely in the terrain he typically skis in the range of conditions he encounters. He doesn't want to be slarving all over the place in all but the softest snow, he doesn't want a ski that he always has to be "on top of" or risk hooking a tip, tail or edge and crashing and he doesn't want something that he will have to worry about faceplanting on if the conditions are not pristine corduroy.

            He is looking at K2 skis and here is what he sees:

            All Mountain

            K2 iKonic 85 Ti; shortest length = 163cm

            Freeride

            K2 Pinnacle 88; shortest length = 170cm
            K2 Pinnacle 95; shortest length = 170cm

            Backcountry and Piste skis are not appropriate choices.

            Hmmmm....what to do:

            Let's look at Line:

            All Mountain

            Supernatural 86; shortest length = 165cm
            Supernatural 92; shortest length = 165cm
            Honey Badger (92); shortest length = 155cm
            Sick Day 95; shortest length = 172cm

            OK, he thinks, maybe if I go up in waist width:

            Blend (100); shortest length = 171cm

            Well shoot! 2 ski companies and only 1 pair of men's All Mountain categorized skis in the length I am interested in.

            What if I go with a set of park skis in the waist width I am interested in?

            K2 Park Skis

            Sight (85); shortest length = 149cm (also in 159cm so close also)
            Press (85); shortest length = 149cm (also in 159cm so close also)
            Poacher (96cm waist so close); shortest length 156cm so close

            Line Park Skis

            Tom Wallisch Pro (90); shortest length = 164cm

            So, he looks at 2 major ski companies and just from a desired length and waist spec standpoint he only has 4 choices. Not many. Now, he has to look at other factors, etc. But the point is - very limited choices in short length men's skis.
            In pursuit of Peace, Harmony and Flow.....
            Think Like a Mountain

            Boards ridden, some owned: Sherpas, Spruce 120 "STS", Blunts, DS110 custom prototypes, Rockered Condors, Revolts, DLPs, Summit Custom 110s, Summit Marauders, Head 94s, Raptor prototypes, Osprey prototypes.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bluewing View Post
              I have been as well. While I certainly don't know the whole story or have any near as much knowledge about skis and skiing as Jeff Singer at Spruce I have been thinking about the "problem" of finding shorter, highly capable skis for adults.

              Let's take a look at an example use case: adult male, average height, average weight, solid advanced intermediate aspiring to become an advanced skier. Confident skier with good skills, but from a non-technical (he was self-taught) skiing background. Lucky and skis 15-25 days per year in the Northeast. Takes 1 to 2 trips per year out West and skis 3 or so days each trip at a resort in Colorado or Tahoe area. Mainly skis groomed terrain but is starting to get into bumps and tree skiing. Not much chance to ski in powder. He skis anything that is on the mountain when he shows up and wants a ski that will get him through even though it won't always be railing it in every condition. Requires release bindings. Skis at a "spirited" pace at times, but more enjoys making turns and really flowing down the mountain. Wants an all-mountain ski with a mid-fat waist (by East Coast terms) somewhere in the 85mm to 95mm range. His goal is to get the shortest skis possible (he is thinking 145-155cm) that will meet his needs and allow him to ski safely in the terrain he typically skis in the range of conditions he encounters. He doesn't want to be slarving all over the place in all but the softest snow, he doesn't want a ski that he always has to be "on top of" or risk hooking a tip, tail or edge and crashing and he doesn't want something that he will have to worry about faceplanting on if the conditions are not pristine corduroy.

              He is looking at K2 skis and here is what he sees:

              All Mountain

              K2 iKonic 85 Ti; shortest length = 163cm

              Freeride

              K2 Pinnacle 88; shortest length = 170cm
              K2 Pinnacle 95; shortest length = 170cm

              Backcountry and Piste skis are not appropriate choices.

              Hmmmm....what to do:

              Let's look at Line:

              All Mountain

              Supernatural 86; shortest length = 165cm
              Supernatural 92; shortest length = 165cm
              Honey Badger (92); shortest length = 155cm
              Sick Day 95; shortest length = 172cm

              OK, he thinks, maybe if I go up in waist width:

              Blend (100); shortest length = 171cm

              Well shoot! 2 ski companies and only 1 pair of men's All Mountain categorized skis in the length I am interested in.

              What if I go with a set of park skis in the waist width I am interested in?

              K2 Park Skis

              Sight (85); shortest length = 149cm (also in 159cm so close also)
              Press (85); shortest length = 149cm (also in 159cm so close also)
              Poacher (96cm waist so close); shortest length 156cm so close

              Line Park Skis

              Tom Wallisch Pro (90); shortest length = 164cm

              So, he looks at 2 major ski companies and just from a desired length and waist spec standpoint he only has 4 choices. Not many. Now, he has to look at other factors, etc. But the point is - very limited choices in short length men's skis.
              Exactly!

              Which is where Spruce Skiboards has stepped in with short skis to fill the void that the big ski manufactures have ignored. Jeff appears to only be offering the Head Caddy and Ethan Too's for sale on his site, but I know he also offered the Head Residue and Elan Pinball Pro for sale last year (maybe he still has those). And I know he has been testing or tested several models from Line, Fischer, Atomic, K2, and Armada - many of which might fit your needs. Hopefully the testing will continue and more options will be available in the future.

              BUT, unless there is a big change in the ski industry, I think the answer still lies in the few of us pushing the limits and trying new things like Jeff has done. One thing that can't be beat is the off the shelf quality when comparing Junior skis manufactured by one of the big ski brands vs. small production runs of skiboards out of China.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by macrophotog View Post
                Exactly!

                Which is where Spruce Skiboards has stepped in with short skis to fill the void that the big ski manufactures have ignored. Jeff appears to only be offering the Head Caddy and Ethan Too's for sale on his site, but I know he also offered the Head Residue and Elan Pinball Pro for sale last year (maybe he still has those). And I know he has been testing or tested several models from Line, Fischer, Atomic, K2, and Armada - many of which might fit your needs. Hopefully the testing will continue and more options will be available in the future.
                I give Jeff a ton of credit for doing what he does. I don't know the full details of it all, but I think he has ridden a lot of skis and studied a lot of designs to then pick the junior skis he wanted to develop adaptations to for supporting adult rider use. And why does he do it? I am going to guess it is not for the money. I think he does it because he loves skiing and loves the concept of skiboards/short skis and wants to help people enjoy the mountains in a similar way to how he enjoys the mountains - by having fun on the slopes. Plus, he provides unparalleled responsiveness and support - a rarity these days.

                Originally posted by macrophotog View Post

                BUT, unless there is a big change in the ski industry, I think the answer still lies in the few of us pushing the limits and trying new things like Jeff has done.
                I don't think the ski industry is going to wake up tomorrow or the day after or the day after that and say "Hey, we missed the boat here. There is a nice market in short skis we are missing out on!" It is an industry too driven by convention and I think consumers are trapped in that convention too so they are not making a case to the ski companies for an unmet demand.

                Originally posted by macrophotog View Post

                One thing that can't be beat is the off the shelf quality when comparing Junior skis manufactured by one of the big ski brands vs. small production runs of skiboards out of China.
                No doubt about that and that is not taking anything away from Jeff and Greco as business people. They get the best product they can out of the manufacturer(s) they deal with I am sure. However, Head and other major ski companies operate at another level when it comes to materials, manufacturing technology and methods and quality.

                Originally posted by macrophotog View Post
                Exactly!

                And I know he has been testing or tested several models from Line, Fischer, Atomic, K2, and Armada - many of which might fit your needs. Hopefully the testing will continue and more options will be available in the future.
                Just for the record - the user in the use case was fictional and any resemblance, similarity or other parallels with a real person are merely coincidental.
                In pursuit of Peace, Harmony and Flow.....
                Think Like a Mountain

                Boards ridden, some owned: Sherpas, Spruce 120 "STS", Blunts, DS110 custom prototypes, Rockered Condors, Revolts, DLPs, Summit Custom 110s, Summit Marauders, Head 94s, Raptor prototypes, Osprey prototypes.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Lessons for me

                  Yesterday Sempai and I climbed Mt. Disney at Sugarbowl .. the lift was closed because of extreme winds but they allow skinning up . We descended Nancy's Couloir a black diamond couloir I like , in the funkiest conditions I have ever seen it . The wind had sandblasted the snow into wave like big ridges . These are called sastrugi . I was meaning to take pictures but we were so bundled up and cold that I could not bear the thought of trying to take my camera out were just being pounded by the heavy wind . Here are some pictures from the internet of the kind of snow we had to ski down on a very steep and challening slope



                  We were both on Sherpas and got down in one piece after quite a challenging ski. I couldnt help wondering if I had had my Shamans skis if I would have had an easier time .
                  Today was a nice head to head test of my 160cm Icelantic Shaman and my Sherpas at Sierra at Tahoe .Both Sugarbowl and Sierra have gotten the most natural snow in Tahoe . Sierra has left open Horsetail run ungroomed . This morning it was big chunky nasty crud snow , so not quite natural Sastrugi but kind of a nice test slope with similar nasty conditions . They also had some nice groomers and a nice mogul slope to test skis. First I rode my Icelantic Shaman , on the groomers the Shaman sticks an edge and has a beautiful carve for such a fat tipped ski . In moguls I did fine and had fun and in the nasty stuff , I was moving through at a good clip just powering through the crud nicely . I almost decided then and there to turn in my skiboard membership and just go over to the dark side and become a skier. Basically as I have said the Shaman is a 30 cm longer version of my Sherpa .

                  But in the interests of science I took out my Sherpas ( mounted set back ) and rode them on the exact same slopes . It was a total revelation to me . On the groomers I noticed right away the difference in the turn radius of the Sherpas 7 cm vs 12 cm . The Sherpas were just so much more playful and turny , They held a nice firm edge and carved beautifully just like the Shaman but I just didnt have to give them any input unlike the Shaman where I had to deliberately steer them more . The Sherpas felt like tiny little things !
                  In the moguls it was no contest , although both essentially have the same dimensions the 30 cm shorter Sherpas were way more fun in the moguls , turning so much easier .. again compared to the Shaman I felt like I was on Blunts .. ha ha .

                  But the big suprise to me was in the crud . The Sherpas which I though would be more work were easier and more fun .
                  The same wide width gave me all the stability I needed laterally and the big wide shovel and me standing on the rear of the Sherpas just kept the tips up just the same as the Shaman but just a little slower and more controllable , and I could turn in the nasty stuff much easier .with less rider input .. I ended up down the nasty slope much less tired then on the Shamans which was a huge surprise for me .

                  So what did I learn . I think my Shamans would be more floatier in the deepest pow day and maybe more stable at mach speed on groomers , but give me my Sherpas any day !
                  Boards :
                  Spliffs
                  DLPs
                  Condors
                  Slingshots
                  Sherpa

                  Boot:
                  K2 BFC 100

                  Bindings:
                  Zero Pro Non release Binding
                  Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
                  Spruce ProPrime Plus Binding/Riser with Attack 13 GW binding
                  Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Still not been out on the RCs this season?

                    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
                    Crossbow (go to dream board)
                    Most everything else over time.
                    Go Android

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bluewing View Post
                      No doubt about that and that is not taking anything away from Jeff and Greco as business people. They get the best product they can out of the manufacturer(s) they deal with I am sure. However, Head and other major ski companies operate at another level when it comes to materials, manufacturing technology and methods and quality.
                      Agree on all points.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by valmorel View Post
                        Still not been out on the RCs this season?

                        Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
                        No not yet , but the RC with a soft boot set up , is like you have said Valmorel in our private emails the furthest thing from traditional skiing that anyone can get . I love the feel of that set up and you can bet I will be on them later this season. Last season I spent most of my time on the Spliffs which I consider in the line of the Sherpa and the Shaman type boards for sure but ended my season last year on RCs and soft boots and had a blast ... just a real different kind of riding .....
                        Boards :
                        Spliffs
                        DLPs
                        Condors
                        Slingshots
                        Sherpa

                        Boot:
                        K2 BFC 100

                        Bindings:
                        Zero Pro Non release Binding
                        Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
                        Spruce ProPrime Plus Binding/Riser with Attack 13 GW binding
                        Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jjue View Post
                          Yesterday Sempai and I climbed Mt. Disney at Sugarbowl .. the lift was closed because of extreme winds but they allow skinning up . We descended Nancy's Couloir a black diamond couloir I like , in the funkiest conditions I have ever seen it...We were both on Sherpas and got down in one piece after quite a challenging ski.
                          Given what I know about your ability to ski very difficult terrain and sempai's skills and willingness to go wherever you go, that must have been quite a nasty set of conditions. Would love to hear more about your tactics for navigating this.

                          Originally posted by jjue View Post
                          Today was a nice head to head test of my 160cm Icelantic Shaman and my Sherpas at Sierra at Tahoe...
                          jjue - a few thoughts:

                          1. Thanks for sharing! Very cool you did this head-to-head comparison and shared the results.

                          2. Applying "conventional wisdom" at your size I would say you are skiing the Shamans at a smaller size than "recommended". These are 160cm and I suspect the charts would put you on a 175cm to 185cm set of Shamans. Do you think that the Shamans would have performed differently if skied at a longer, "recommended" length?

                          3. I am not familiar with the set-up of the Shamans re binding mount point. You mentioned you were riding them set back. Can you say how far set back and from what reference point on the ski? Some skis were very sensitive to binding position. Not sure how much time you have on the Shamans and how much you might have experimented with binding position influence on the ride.

                          4. Were you skiing the Sherpas with your AT binding on them? If so, do you think that affects how they ride for you versus the more traditional set up using the Spruce riser, which I would guess has a higher stand height than even the AT binding set up?
                          In pursuit of Peace, Harmony and Flow.....
                          Think Like a Mountain

                          Boards ridden, some owned: Sherpas, Spruce 120 "STS", Blunts, DS110 custom prototypes, Rockered Condors, Revolts, DLPs, Summit Custom 110s, Summit Marauders, Head 94s, Raptor prototypes, Osprey prototypes.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Bluewing , in answer to your questions
                            navigating nasty terrain : I use two basic techniques , one was weighting the tails and turning the skis together as one , the winshield wiper technique discussed on the how to ski crud thread... the other was to weight the downhill ski and power through the crud with more weight on the downhill ski and the uphill ski light , much as you would carve on a groomed slope .. in this very variable changeable snow , sometimes one technique would work and sometimes the other better . it was a matter of turn by turn varying technique depending on condition

                            I chose the Shaman because I think it is very length independent other then overall float .It really is designed almost exactly like an oversized Sherpa in different lengths. The board is a traditional cambered board with an unusual "y " shape big tip and smaller tail and is very stiff and rigid, I think the only thing a bigger board would do for me is give me more float in deep pow , in crud which is varying from firm to soft . .i dont think there is any difference , which is why the Sherpa actually is more fun

                            I mounted my boot center directly on the boot center mark on the ski . The Shaman has a very rear recommended boot center mark which helps along with the Y shape to keep the tips up in bad snow , interestingly this position also is wonderful for carving on firm snow , which is why it is called a power carver . interestingly icelantic has discontinued this design, and gone with the more popular rockered boards for soft snow .

                            At the resort in my head to head test against the Shaman I used my Sherpa set back with a traditional Spruce riser and not the AT binding set up .
                            Boards :
                            Spliffs
                            DLPs
                            Condors
                            Slingshots
                            Sherpa

                            Boot:
                            K2 BFC 100

                            Bindings:
                            Zero Pro Non release Binding
                            Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
                            Spruce ProPrime Plus Binding/Riser with Attack 13 GW binding
                            Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jjue View Post
                              Hi Bluewing , in answer to your questions...
                              jjue - thanks. Didn't realize your version of the Shaman was traditional camber. I wonder how much that influenced the way it handled - I would think that is a long of edge to manage on a cambered ski. Having rocker at both ends would certainly benefit getting that big tip and the tail to slide over nasty stuff without grabbing. I also wonder if that big tip, even with its funky shape, is prone to catching in 3D snow. One could say that the Sherpa big shovel would have the same propensity; however, given the Sherpas short length, even if the shovel does hang up a bit the resulting forces exerted by the board and the forces necessary to free/redirect the shovel would be way less than the Shaman given the length differences.

                              Cool experiment. Thanks again for sharing.
                              In pursuit of Peace, Harmony and Flow.....
                              Think Like a Mountain

                              Boards ridden, some owned: Sherpas, Spruce 120 "STS", Blunts, DS110 custom prototypes, Rockered Condors, Revolts, DLPs, Summit Custom 110s, Summit Marauders, Head 94s, Raptor prototypes, Osprey prototypes.

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