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2017 Ickys - And So It Begins

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  • #76
    Race Tune

    Sorry. There is an internet based company that's 20 miles from my shop that only sells racing skis. Every brand I've ever heard of. They've been in business since 1988 and built their own building two years ago. Artechski.com Last year, I stopped to talk to the guy that tunes all of their new skis after sales and also a few walk-ins like me. After talking with him, I thought I'd try having a pair of pretty ordinary short skis tuned up by him. I don't know how much time he spent on them, but I couldn't believe how good they were on snow. Tons of glide and edges that just wouldn't quit. Very different from the average shop tune. I asked this guy how long he spends on expensive race skis right out of the box. He said 3 hours average, a lot of which is cutting down the sidewall shoulder to a low height and putting a custom structure pattern on the base that the customer can request. This guy is a club ski racer himself , so I asked him where he would take his own skis for tuning if he couldn't do it himself. He knew of one other shop in New England that's 120 miles away that has a "pretty good" reputation with racers. Because I'm almost always on cold dry snow and ice, I had him do the 104 bases with essentially no structure to get optimal speed for that snow. The edges are tuned 1 degree base 2 degree side, which is the most common rec. edge these days. Ground first and then polished in sequence with three increasingly fine diamond stones. I think the key to his work is that he looks at every ski first and cooks up a strategy for tuning it that depends on exactly what he finds with that one ski. When I picked up my 104s, I asked him what he thought when he first looked at them and he said "pretty good" which I take to be a high complement. I now have 5 pair of my own boards tuned by him and I can't imagine going without it on any new boards that I start riding. So, after years of thinking that fancy tuning was a waste of money, I'm a believer. Cost? Usually $65 for as long as it takes to get he boards right. I do a little better with brand new boards that don't need damage repair.

    Comment


    • #77
      Jeff,

      Other than the structure, did the bases/edges have to be ground down to be flattened first on the 104s before the edge angles could be set?

      The base and edge tune makes a big difference for us on the east coast. Even if it is not perfect in terms of polishing, the angles and flatness matter a lot. Much of that gets masked by nice packed powder conditions that we very seldom have for an entire run. On such nice conditions just about anything goes with minimum impact on general performance... I've been on several boards that were great on soft and even on very firm but not icy conditions, yet those same boards fell apart completely over icy patches despite having sharp edges. They were just tuned wrong (or rather not tuned from the factory), with bases that were not flat and with bevel angles too big to work consistently on transition from snow to ice (from different brands, so not picking on any board in particular, just the characteristics that mattered there)...

      Comment


      • #78
        I don't know because I didn't ask. I do know that RVL8 and Spruce boards typically come with a bit of base hump (thick base in the center of the ski), so the bases can be ground flat first. The Artech tune guy said that he looks at the board first and does what makes sense. Most European skis come from the factory a bit railed (base thin in the center of the board), so for those he might take the base of the edges down some on a narrow belt sander first to get them out of the way of the stone. Then stone grind the P-tex and then go back with a file and polishing stones on the edges. It all depends on what's going on with each ski.
        I do know from experience that the toughest edge problem to deal with is edges that are not completely flat on the base side, but are rounded because they were not done with an accurate machine. For those, the only choice is to run them through a stone grinder over and over until the base of the edges can be made flat at the desired angle. I've occasionally had boards that took close to an hour of stone grinding before the edges could be flat ground. That's expensive and frustrating for the tuner.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by jsinger View Post
          I got my prototype 104s race tuned so that I'd have one less excuse for why I couldn't make them go. I rode them for a few runs today on pretty hard, cold snow that was a bit chopped up. I haven't ridden a board this short for more than 10 years, so I had to quickly relearn how to make them go. My impression of this board is that it's a great carver. I could hold a very firm edge in hard snow and adjust my line without losing the edge. I've learned by example that a true race tune makes a big difference in edge performance and glide, so I don't know how much of this board's performance is attributable to that, but this board has a nice solid feel to to that I haven't experienced since I rode my Line 98s.
          Jeff were you able to compare the SIIs (104cm) protos with the Spliff (109cm) protos from last year? I seem to recall you were not able to give the Spiff protos much testing due to the warm season we had here in the East in 15/16. Would be interested in hearing how you think the two sets compare.
          Boards:
          2016 Spruce tuned Head Jr. Caddys - 131cm
          2013 Spruce "CTS" 120s
          2010 Spruce "Yellow/Red" 120s
          2018 Spruce "CTS" Crossbows - 115cm
          2016 RVL8 Spliffs - 109cm
          2008 RVL8 Revolt "City" - 105cm
          2017 RVL8 Sticky Icky Icky - 104cm
          2011 Defiance Blades - 101cm

          Comment


          • #80
            Thanks!

            What you say below is exactly what I'm dealing with on a pair of KTPs right now to make them rideable on icy patches. I've been grinding for hours (manually, using sandpaper on an aluminum block) and I'm almost to a point where the bases are flat enough. I am just beginning to get the bases level with the inside of the edges. The outside of the edges is still quite far away from flat (beveled too much) so I have a lot more grinding to do; and I am about to give-up and go pay someone to finish it on a machine... But it's good exercise, I say

            Originally posted by jsinger View Post
            ...I do know from experience that the toughest edge problem to deal with is edges that are not completely flat on the base side, but are rounded because they were not done with an accurate machine. For those, the only choice is to run them through a stone grinder over and over until the base of the edges can be made flat at the desired angle. I've occasionally had boards that took close to an hour of stone grinding before the edges could be flat ground. That's expensive and frustrating for the tuner.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Kocho View Post
              Thanks!

              .................. I've been grinding for hours (manually, using sandpaper on an aluminum block) and I'm almost to a point where the bases are flat enough. I am just beginning to get the bases level with the inside of the edges. The outside of the edges is still quite far away from flat (beveled too much) so I have a lot more grinding to do; and I am about to give-up and go pay someone to finish it on a machine... But it's good exercise, I say
              Wrapping sandpaper on a cylinder (I use ABS pipe) and rotating it slowly while sanding the base helps it go faster.

              Another option is to get the sanding tube Bill posted about for use with a drill.

              BTW: I had to pay the base grind fee and an additional $85 for a sanding belt one time when I asked that the base be ground until the edges were flat. I now do it by hand, get a better result and it is more cost effective.
              sigpic


              Osprey, Sherpa, Custom Coda 120WT, Custom DS110, Condor (Green), Spliff

              Custom Twist Out duck foot bindings, Bombers (custom duck foot base plate and 3 pads), releasable S810ti on custom duck foot riser

              Nordica N3 NXT ski boots (best so far)


              Wife: 104 SII & 100 Blunt XL with S810ti bindings on custom "adjustable duck foot" risers

              Loaners: 125LE, 105 EMP, 101 KTP, 100 Blunt XL, 98 Slapdash, 88 Blunts

              Comment


              • #82
                Spliffs vs. Ickys

                I have a pair if Spliff prototypes that I got from Greco in the Summer of 2015. I tried to ride them on opening day at Bretton Woods which turned out to be a bad idea because there was one narrow trail open and a thousand or so eager skiers all seemingly going at warp speed. One run was all I could manage on the Spliffs and I was so busy trying to be sure that I wouldn't get run down that it was far from a fair test. I got busy with Spruce activities and didn't get back to the Spliffs at all. Part of that I'm sure is that I'm not a wide board person, so there's much less attraction for me compared to the Icky's which are a real carving board. I had Greco send me a pair of the Spliff production boards last summer and I want to try those soon and see how they go. I may get one of them race tuned and the other left at factory stock to see if I can tell a difference. I'm sure I'll be able to, it's more a matter of degree. If I ride the Spliffs back-to-back with the Ickys, I expect they will seem very different, but we'll see.

                Comment


                • #83
                  I'm really looking forwards to hearing opinions from other riders about the Ickys. I can't help but feel they are going to become a favorite amongst the forum members. If the snow falls as predicted over the next few days, I'll let you know how they are in powder[emoji3]


                  Just these, nothing else !

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Bad Wolf View Post
                    If the snow falls as predicted over the next few days, I'll let you know how they are in powder.
                    Prepare to lean back.
                    Boards/Bindings:
                    2013 Spruce Sherpas w/Tyrolia Peak 11s
                    2023 Spruce Stingers w/Tyrolia Peak 11s
                    2015 RVL8 Blunt XLs w/Tyrolia Attack 13s
                    2020 RVL8 Sticky Icky Ickys w/Tyrolia SX 10s


                    Boots:
                    Salomon X-Pro 80

                    Past boards: Salomon Snowblades, Line MNPs 89 & 98 cm, Five-Os, Bullets, Jedis, Spruce 120s, LE 125s, Ospreys, Crossbows
                    Summit 110s, Nomads, Jades, RVL8 ALPs, BWPs, KTPs, Tanshos, Rockets, DLPs, Blunts, Condors, RCs, Revolts, Spliffs

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by slow View Post
                      Another option is to get the sanding tube Bill posted about for use with a drill.
                      That would be this particular tool:

                      http://www.grizzly.com/products/7-1-...m-Sander/D4595

                      I use it with a variable speed cordless drill at low speed so it doesn't melt the base material, and use a gum rubber type belt cleaner regularly to keep clogging down. It's not a bad idea to color the metal edges with dykem or a felt market so you can see when you're getting close. Start with coarse sleeves and finish progressively finer. To keep from washboading, I make passes at alternate angles, then make the last few light passes with the grain to put structure back in (just like you would grade a road).

                      It works okay. A belt sander is too aggressive and hard to control, hand sanding is too tedious.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        In addition to using a black sharpie on the edges (to make sure I see when I get them flat with sanding, and later that I've created a good edge during tuning), I also draw lines spaced 3-5" apart across the width of the board edge to edge with a dry-erase marker. That helps a lot to observe where the bases need flattening (and unfortunately, where there are dimples that there isn't much to do about and probably don't affect performance much, unless they happen to be near the edges).

                        I did try the ABS round pipe idea last time I worked on flattening a board, and also today again. I preferred the flat block today, seems to be more controllable than a round thingy and the sand paper tends to stay put (where it comes off more easily from my round pipe hand sanding contraption).

                        Like Jeff's idea, I left one of my KTP boards with a flat base but slightly more bevel edge angle (I just ran out of steam and sand paper so could not fully flatten the edges today). The other board is "perfectly" tuned (well, good enough: flat bases, proper edge angles). Once I ride them, I will see if the "good" tune is good or too aggressive or how much the "bad" tune too relaxed and then tune both boards to whatever I feel would be the best compromise between relaxed and too edgy.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Kocho, I forgot to mention, I slit my ABS tube along the length to tuck in the sandpaper ends so the sandpaper stays in place.

                          Bill, What grit papers do you use?

                          Bad Wolf, looking forward to hearing how you do in powder.
                          sigpic


                          Osprey, Sherpa, Custom Coda 120WT, Custom DS110, Condor (Green), Spliff

                          Custom Twist Out duck foot bindings, Bombers (custom duck foot base plate and 3 pads), releasable S810ti on custom duck foot riser

                          Nordica N3 NXT ski boots (best so far)


                          Wife: 104 SII & 100 Blunt XL with S810ti bindings on custom "adjustable duck foot" risers

                          Loaners: 125LE, 105 EMP, 101 KTP, 100 Blunt XL, 98 Slapdash, 88 Blunts

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by jsinger View Post
                            ...... If I ride the Spliffs back-to-back with the Ickys, I expect they will seem very different, but we'll see.
                            Keep us posted. Would love to hear your reviews.
                            Boards:
                            2016 Spruce tuned Head Jr. Caddys - 131cm
                            2013 Spruce "CTS" 120s
                            2010 Spruce "Yellow/Red" 120s
                            2018 Spruce "CTS" Crossbows - 115cm
                            2016 RVL8 Spliffs - 109cm
                            2008 RVL8 Revolt "City" - 105cm
                            2017 RVL8 Sticky Icky Icky - 104cm
                            2011 Defiance Blades - 101cm

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              On the subtopic of "Race Tuning" this was very interesting:

                              Boards:
                              2016 Spruce tuned Head Jr. Caddys - 131cm
                              2013 Spruce "CTS" 120s
                              2010 Spruce "Yellow/Red" 120s
                              2018 Spruce "CTS" Crossbows - 115cm
                              2016 RVL8 Spliffs - 109cm
                              2008 RVL8 Revolt "City" - 105cm
                              2017 RVL8 Sticky Icky Icky - 104cm
                              2011 Defiance Blades - 101cm

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Nice video Wookie. I'm surprised there wasn't more edge work. You hear of people using progressively finer files on the edges to polish them and create a razor sharpe finish. He spent less time on his edges than I do, and he was working on race skis. Plus, he seemed to remove a lot of material off the sidewall. If you did that every time you tuned your skis there would be no sidewall left?
                                Just these, nothing else !

                                Comment

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