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Camber or Stiffness? The Blunts vs. the KTPs

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  • Camber or Stiffness? The Blunts vs. the KTPs

    I have been riding the Blunts all year. I love what they can get away with in their small size. My home mountain only has small park features open right now (a bunch of rails and some jumps <10-15'), and the Blunts handle these without issue. I've also put them through their paces at all-mountain riding, and they can easily handle everything the East Coast has to offer.

    Yesterday after riding the Blunts most of the day, I forced myself to switch over to the KTPs... wow. I was completely blown away by how different the ride characteristics were, completely changing my initial sentiment. The Blunts' soft flex, flat-base, and early rise make them extremely effortless, light, and playful. By contrast, the KTPs operate in a completely different mode... SKIBOARD AND DESTROY!

    As soon as I initiated the first carve and felt them lock into the snow with an unwavering death grip, I just wanted to ride as fast and hard as possible. I went to the longest, steepest hill there, pointed them, and drove: full out speed with double hand-dragging carves. As much as I love the Blunts, the stiffness and camber of the KTPs allows them to grip the snow so much better when going fast, and even though they're only a short bit longer, the stiffness and camber makes them much more stable at high speed. I took a quick lap through the park, and the problems I had with the flex of the Blunts causing them to give out on sketchy landings were gone.... replaced with rock-solid stability.



    So my take-aways from this:

    1. The Blunts are definitely the #1 board I would recommend to almost anyone who wants to try skiboarding. They are effortless and playful, and they can handle any conditions that I've encountered so far. The ride they provide essentially defines skiboarding.

    2. I would still recommend the KTPs to anyone who wants the classic skiboard feel, but prefers to ride aggressively. Riding the Blunts for all of this season makes me appreciate the power that the KTPs have to ride fast and hard.



    And some new questions...

    1. I haven't gotten to ride the Blunts in west coast powder yet, but I have a suspicion that in spite of their decreased length, they may actually provide an easier ride than the KTPs. The KTPs handle deep powder good with plenty of float, especially in the set back position, but you always have to lean back. I think the rocker and soft flex on the Blunts might give them an upper hand.

    2. I really am wondering if it is the stiffness or camber that makes the difference in the ride characteristics. More specifically, I wonder if a stiff flat/rocker design would offer both the stability of the KTP with the playfulness of the Blunts.

    3. I wonder why the KTPs look so "long and skinny"...

  • #2
    I really hope I'm not speaking beyond my ken here as my experience is with normal and short skis - I have my first set of PROPER skiboards arriving this week (Revolts) and am literally chatting with someone right now in regards to picking up their KTPs.

    In regards to camber/rocker and stiffness, I've noticed that it's not so easy to isolate which quality affects the ride in which way to what degree. For example, at the same length a stiffer board with the same C/R as a softer one is not automatically going to put plusses on stability and minuses on maneuverability in a totally predictable fashion. Yes, there are some general rules - like a rockered board generally floating better than a cambered one, or a softer board maneuvering better than a stiffer one - but the specific ride characteristics of a board are so much dependent on the interplay of so many various qualities that even theoretically similar equipment can behave in very different ways from one another. Given, these differences are probably more noticeable with generally larger gear, but that doesn't mean they're insubstantial as it scales down.

    Insofar as stability (at speed), I find that generally increases with length as much (if not more) than stiffness. As such, I'd assume that KTPs will automatically be more stable than Blunts which are over 10% shorter. Also, as board length decreases flexibility has a mathematically decreasing significance as there's less board affected.

    Once the math starts getting involved it's easier to analyze specific traits and make some generalized predictions - the raw amounts of surface area and perimeter are important considerations as is the ratio of surface area to perimeter (and surface area is affected by rocker, camber, and flexibility at times) along with the degree of edge curve and blah blah blah. If you think of it like wing design on aircraft you'll see that the big difference is that decades and decades of study and formulations have converged to the point where a wing can be mathematically modeled to achieve certain characteristics. Snow sliding equipment just isn't to that point yet - but if you want to make a fortune feel free to crack that code.
    Signatures are the online equivalent of an elevator fart. Here's anther one for you: CUPCAKE!

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    • #3
      Originally posted by kirk View Post
      Yesterday after riding the Blunts most of the day, I forced myself to switch over to the KTPs... wow. I was completely blown away by how different the ride characteristics were, completely changing my initial sentiment. The Blunts' soft flex, flat-base, and early rise make them extremely effortless, light, and playful. By contrast, the KTPs operate in a completely different mode... SKIBOARD AND DESTROY!

      As soon as I initiated the first carve and felt them lock into the snow with an unwavering death grip, I just wanted to ride as fast and hard as possible. I went to the longest, steepest hill there, pointed them, and drove: full out speed with double hand-dragging carves. As much as I love the Blunts, the stiffness and camber of the KTPs allows them to grip the snow so much better when going fast, and even though they're only a short bit longer, the stiffness and camber makes them much more stable at high speed. I took a quick lap through the park, and the problems I had with the flex of the Blunts causing them to give out on sketchy landings were gone.... replaced with rock-solid stability.
      First - I was wondering when you would come back to your senses!

      Second - I think the Blunts handle like they are on rails when you lay them over and carve so I can't imagine what the KTPs are like if they lock into a carve even better and hold it with more force. Must be wicked fun.

      Third - sounds like the KTP-ng_p model would take the KTP to a whole new level - keep the stiffness and Bluntisize the rest.
      In pursuit of Peace, Harmony and Flow.....
      Think Like a Mountain

      Boards ridden, some owned: Sherpas, Spruce 120 "STS", Blunts, DS110 custom prototypes, Rockered Condors, Revolts, DLPs, Summit Custom 110s, Summit Marauders, Head 94s, Raptor prototypes, Osprey prototypes.

      Comment


      • #4
        Candidly Kirk, I am surprised you like the Blunts as much as you do. They are after all polar opposites of the KTPs.
        I have talked with Jjue over many years regarding skiboard design parameters, and indeed skis, and there is def a kind of progression. It seems to work like this: folks start out on soft. Soft is forgiving, allowing pivoting and sliding and riding easily over rougher snow. As they progress they move to stiffer and stiffer because these products carve so solidly. Nothing feels quite like that wonderful locked in on rails feeling that we get on these stiffer products. It's actually the torsional stiffness that comes automatically with a stiffer overall build but that's by the by.
        This is where many folks stop, and you can see them all over the hill, especially in Europe, elegantly carving trenches, maybe going a little too fast, with loads of style. Cool, they are having a wonderful time, which is just how it should be.
        Trouble is, as these products get stiffer, they start to become a bit one dimensional.
        As you know, as we progress beyond upper intermediate and move from piste carving to free skiing, a softer more universal product is often better. At this level carving is no problem because by now we can carve on barrel staves LOL. At this point we are probably better served by boards like the RCs and Blunts.
        Park is of course a very specific use which will generate a tailored product but its interesting that twin tippers prefer medium flex skis for park.
        Would a flat KTP be better than a cambered one? Light years so. Softer? That is not quite so clear.
        I know we are never satisfied but I would buy a 99 Blunt in a heartbeat

        Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
        Crossbow (go to dream board)
        Most everything else over time.
        Go Android

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by valmorel View Post
          I know we are never satisfied but I would buy a 99 Blunt in a heartbeat
          Me too!
          Boards/Bindings:
          2013 Spruce Sherpas w/Tyrolia Peak 11s
          2023 Spruce Stingers w/Tyrolia Peak 11s
          2015 RVL8 Blunt XLs w/Tyrolia Attack 13s
          2020 RVL8 Sticky Icky Ickys w/Tyrolia SX 10s


          Boots:
          Salomon X-Pro 80

          Past boards: Salomon Snowblades, Line MNPs 89 & 98 cm, Five-Os, Bullets, Jedis, Spruce 120s, LE 125s, Ospreys, Crossbows
          Summit 110s, Nomads, Jades, RVL8 ALPs, BWPs, KTPs, Tanshos, Rockets, DLPs, Blunts, Condors, RCs, Revolts, Spliffs

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          • #6
            Originally posted by valmorel View Post
            I know we are never satisfied but I would buy a 99 Blunt in a heartbeat
            ^^^^^^ +2
            Just these, nothing else !

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            • #7
              +3


              I'm gonna get 45 days on the mountain this year if it kills me!
              33 down, 12 to go!

              Comment


              • #8
                Interesting topic, thanks Kirk for bringing it up ...
                I found this comment by Zach on the Blunt Moods thread
                Originally posted by Zach View Post
                ....
                I know I have adjusted on ice. My ktp's had so much edge and stiffness that I could carve over and through anything. The blunts I slarve over ice rather then planting a firm edge.

                To me the design of skiboards and how folks take to a particular design really depend alot on a rider's style and approach to the mountain . I think I have come to enjoy a style of riding which allows me not to be aggressively on edge all the time and going fast but to vary between being on edge or slarving , and smoothly transitioning from one to the other without a sharp feel of going from flat to edgey. This has not always been the case and initially I really liked boards that were uber stiff and really liked to get aggressively on edge and hold it right there . My favorite board was the Summit woodie 110 which was probably one the stiffest cambered skiboard ever made . I have gotten rid of that as my style of riding has changed .
                I also got rid of my KTP because it felt really too stiff for my style and did not allow me to go "soft edge" as much as some of the other skiboards.
                This season I tried riding all three styles of my Condors back to back , original cambered but very soft flexing year 1 Condor , stiff cambered current model , and zero cambered heavily rockered RC . There is no question that aggressively carving on ice or very firm snow , the best performing board is the current stiff Condor . The combination of the stiffness and the camber allows that board to lock better then the other two right on edge . The soft flexing but cambered original year 1 Condor has less edge hold on ice but because it is so soft it is significantly easier and smoother to slide then the current stiffer Condor . So you give up ice hold and get sliding performance and a smoother progression from slide to carve . The Rockered, zero cambered Condor has the least edge hold on ice but is the most nimble feeling and the smoothest slider . Despite the drought conditions and the lack of powder , I still prefer the RC on firm snow just because I have changed from a hard aggressive rider to one that likes a smoother style and likes the ability to smoothly transition from carve to slide and in fact will often prefer to slide in many icy conditions , rather then try to carve.

                Interesting with respect to the Blunt , it is signifcantly stiffer over all then the RC although of course softer then the KTP. It is also signifcantly less rockered the the RC and actually has a longer running length then the RC. I signifcantly prefer the Blunt to the RC or any of the Condors or the KTP on firm icy snow . because it does everything my RC does on firm snow but just does it better, it has better edge hold on ice and I am better able to control a slide on ice . For my style of riding it is the firm snow skiboard I just keep coming back to and is a delight .

                However, I 100% see how Kirk and others who have a different style then me would prefer a stiffer , cambered board .
                Boards :
                Blunt Xl, DLP, Spliff, Condor, Rockered Condor , Slingshot, Sherpa, Icelantic Shaman
                Boots
                K2 BFC 100 Grip walk sole , Dynafit CR Radical AT boot, Ride Insano Snowboard boots
                Bindings:
                Zero Pro Non release Binding
                Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
                Spruce Riser with Attack 14 GW /AT binding
                Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)
                Rocker and Sbol Soft Boot Bindings.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by CKL View Post
                  In regards to camber/rocker and stiffness, I've noticed that it's not so easy to isolate which quality affects the ride in which way to what degree.
                  Yeah, its definitely hard to isolate variables with this stuff. I really thought that the length would be the biggest thing I noticed different with the Blunts, but it is actually somewhat negligible in my riding style compared to the impact of the flex/rocker combo.



                  Originally posted by CKL View Post
                  Once the math starts getting involved it's easier to analyze specific traits and make some generalized predictions
                  Yeah, it would definitely be nice to have a way to model these parameters. I think the real challenge in this wouldn't be in the boards themselves but in modeling the physics of snow conditions and determining what outcomes are actually considered favorable for a certain class of riders. And of course, the varieties in rider skill/style/bias wouldn't be the easiest things to get right either...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by valmorel View Post
                    Candidly Kirk, I am surprised you like the Blunts as much as you do. They are after all polar opposites of the KTPs.
                    ...
                    Would a flat KTP be better than a cambered one? Light years so. Softer? That is not quite so clear.
                    I know we are never satisfied but I would buy a 99 Blunt in a heartbeat
                    Yeah, they're definitely quite a different ride, but I love shedding that extra little bit of length moving from the KTPs to the Blunts. When conditions have been decently soft, I haven't wanted to leave the Blunts.

                    But, as the park features have slowly been getting larger, I find myself riding more aggressively and preferring the KTPs more and more. I've got to ride them back to back a few times out now, and I really wish I had a 88cm KTP and a 99cm Blunt to see where the differences truly lie...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jjue View Post
                      However, I 100% see how Kirk and others who have a different style then me would prefer a stiffer , cambered board .
                      I agree completely on style being a huge thing, and I feel that for most riders, the Blunts are probably a better fit. Until the park features started getting bigger and I started riding significantly more aggressively, I definitely preferred the Blunts. It's hard to describe, but they just have a natural flow to them that lets them cruise completely effortlessly. And of course, their size is absolutely awesome. In the very limited "powder" I've encountered so far, its amazing to see the Blunts floating along at least as good as my KTPs (if not better), even in their tiny length.

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                      • #12
                        Final update.... (for now)

                        I rode today, and the conditions were terrible: solid ice base with sporadic loose corn patches. Now for the West Coast riders, when I say ice, I don't mean hard snow... I mean you could put on a pair of ice skates and skate right down the hill - that's literally how bad it gets in the East!

                        Anyway, I started on the Blunts... and it was not good. Trying to land tricks on a solid sheet of ice when your boards are soft and rockered just doesn't pan out... I couldn't switch boards quick enough. I lasted at most 5 laps in the park before switching out to the KTPs. Once I had them back on, it was a world of a difference. The conditions were still crap, but those edges grab so good it didn't matter. The boards grabbed on landings, and I was still able to carve when I wanted to.

                        I don't know if I would have noticed if I wasn't riding park, but the combination of solid ice conditions, park, and soft rockered boards was not good.

                        Now all this aside, unless it is solid ice my next time out (or I know there are large jumps), I still plan on defaulting to the Blunts - they're still that fun.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by kirk View Post
                          Final update.... (for now)


                          Now all this aside, unless it is solid ice my next time out (or I know there are large jumps), I still plan on defaulting to the Blunts - they're still that fun.
                          Great stuff.

                          Is there any benefit to the rocker on the Blunts in the park. I believe the twin tip skiers say the rocker helps them to slide rails without catching an edge and makes for softer landings?
                          Just these, nothing else !

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