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Let's Get Edgy - Base and Edge Angles

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  • Let's Get Edgy - Base and Edge Angles

    Thought a more technically oriented thread regarding edge and base angles might be good. Below are a few general resources on edge and base angles and maintenance. By no means comprehensive or exhaustive - just a few decent links.

    Do you have technical expertise you can share regarding edge and base angles in general? As it relates to skiboards?

    Have you done any experimentation with changing edge and base angles and want to share what you learned?

    Done anything more complex, such as variable edge or base angles where the angle changes along the length of the board?

    Tognar Tookworks: http://www.tognar.com/bevel_edge_tip...snowboard.html

    Racewax: http://www.racewax.com/t-edge-tuning.aspx

    JIB Tuning: http://www.jibtuning.co.uk/index.php...tuning-diagram
    In pursuit of Peace, Harmony and Flow.....
    Think Like a Mountain

    Boards ridden, some owned: Sherpas, Spruce 120 "STS", Blunts, DS110 custom prototypes, Rockered Condors, Revolts, DLPs, Summit Custom 110s, Summit Marauders, Head 94s, Raptor prototypes, Osprey prototypes.

  • #2
    I have one of the hand edging tools with a pre set angle and sharpen my edges when I wax my skis. I think the angle is set to 89 degrees and I've never really considered the benefits of changing it. I understand the concepts of side angles, base angles and how you can grind ski bases to affect the relation ship of the edge to the base, but don't know if it would benefit my skiing if I changed them. I presume it's not as relevant on the soft snow we get in AZ compared to icier east coast conditions.

    It would be interesting to see if I might be able to get better performance by setting up these angles differently.
    Just these, nothing else !

    Comment


    • #3
      I set our skiboards to 88 degree side and zero base to handle the rock hard snow we ride. I have hand flattened to get the zero base edge, but that is a lot of work.

      I have now started to mark the base edges with a permanent marker before having them base ground with firm instructions that I want all the marker cleaned off with a zero base angle. I also let the shop know that I am willing to pay extra for the extra passes. That seems to make them less resistent to follow my instructions even though they have never charged me more.

      Last season I experimented with a progressive base angle on my DS110 which came in out of spec with high camber and would therefore hook (http://www.skiboardsonline.com/forum...ht=progressive). I was very happy with the result so I have since gone to 1.5 degree on the base angle furthest from center ( the max base angle I can get with my adjustable base angle guide).

      At the end of last season, Maria wanted to try my KTPs and to my surprise she liked them. But since she is a relatively light rider for the KTPs, over the summer I added a progressive base angle to the KTPs. Here are the details:

      Side edge angle: 88 degrees

      Progressive base edge:
      Center 1/3 of running (contact) length (under foot): 0 degrees
      Next 1/6 of running length: .75 degrees
      Outer 1/6 of running length: 1.5 degrees
      Transitions "blended" with a diamond stone "freehand"

      I will post how they ride once we get a chance to ride them.
      sigpic


      Osprey, Sherpa, Custom Coda 120WT, Custom DS110, Condor (Green), Spliff

      Custom Twist Out duck foot bindings, Bombers (custom duck foot base plate and 3 pads), releasable S810ti on custom duck foot riser

      Nordica N3 NXT ski boots (best so far)


      Wife: 104 SII & 100 Blunt XL with S810ti bindings on custom "adjustable duck foot" risers

      Loaners: 125LE, 105 EMP, 101 KTP, 100 Blunt XL, 98 Slapdash, 88 Blunts

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by slow View Post
        I set our skiboards to 88 degree side and zero base to handle the rock hard snow we ride. I have hand flattened to get the zero base edge, but that is a lot of work.

        I have now started to mark the base edges with a permanent marker before having them base ground with firm instructions that I want all the marker cleaned off with a zero base angle. I also let the shop know that I am willing to pay extra for the extra passes. That seems to make them less resistent to follow my instructions even though they have never charged me more.

        Last season I experimented with a progressive base angle on my DS110 which came in out of spec with high camber and would therefore hook (http://www.skiboardsonline.com/forum...ht=progressive). I was very happy with the result so I have since gone to 1.5 degree on the base angle furthest from center ( the max base angle I can get with my adjustable base angle guide).

        At the end of last season, Maria wanted to try my KTPs and to my surprise she liked them. But since she is a relatively light rider for the KTPs, over the summer I added a progressive base angle to the KTPs. Here are the details:

        Side edge angle: 88 degrees

        Progressive base edge:
        Center 1/3 of running (contact) length (under foot): 0 degrees
        Next 1/6 of running length: .75 degrees
        Outer 1/6 of running length: 1.5 degrees
        Transitions "blended" with a diamond stone "freehand"

        I will post how they ride once we get a chance to ride them.
        Those are really cool experiments. Thanks for sharing.

        Can you share more details on:

        --How you did the measurements - in general and to make them consistent between both boards? (I am challenged when working with measurements with things that curve at the end and on the sides!)

        --How do you do the edge angles for the sections - e.g., mark out the measured section with tape and then use the edge cutting tool between the pieces of tape?

        --How did you then do the blending with the diamond stone and was it just an eyeball reference to get them to blend together?

        --How do you do edge tuning/sharpening after that then to maintain the edge angles you set?
        In pursuit of Peace, Harmony and Flow.....
        Think Like a Mountain

        Boards ridden, some owned: Sherpas, Spruce 120 "STS", Blunts, DS110 custom prototypes, Rockered Condors, Revolts, DLPs, Summit Custom 110s, Summit Marauders, Head 94s, Raptor prototypes, Osprey prototypes.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bluewing View Post
          -How you did the measurements - in general and to make them consistent between both boards? (I am challenged when working with measurements with things that curve at the end and on the sides!)

          I always mark my skiboards with a center punch 1 inch toward the center from the point at which the skiboard base contacts a flat surface. To be sure they are marked the same, I first mark with pencil the sidewall at the point it is contacting the flat surface then measure 1 inch in and mark this point with a center punch on the sidewall. I then position the skiboard so the tip (or tail) is up against a vertical surface and I place a piece of tape on the flat surface the skiboard is resting at the detuning point I just marked with the center punch on the skiboard. I then use this to mark the other three sides of skiboard and the second skiboard. [I will add a picture when I get a chance.]

          Originally posted by Bluewing View Post
          -How do you do the edge angles for the sections - e.g., mark out the measured section with tape and then use the edge cutting tool between the pieces of tape?
          I measure the distance between the detuning points I described above, divide it 3 to get the length under foot that I will leave at 0 degrees base angle centered relative to the insert pattern. I mark these points with a center punch. I then divide the distance from these points to the detuning point and also mark them with the center punch. As an example if the distance between detuning pints is 60 cm, the under foot length at 0 degrees is 20 cm long, or 10 cm in each direction from the center of the inset pattern. The next mark is then 10 cm further toward the tip and tail.

          Originally posted by Bluewing View Post
          -How did you then do the blending with the diamond stone and was it just an eyeball reference to get them to blend together?
          I freehand blend at the marked points with about three strokes using a 200 grit stone.

          Originally posted by Bluewing View Post
          -How do you do edge tuning/sharpening after that then to maintain the edge angles you set?
          Generally once base angles are set, the base edge is only deburred and edge tuning/sharpening is only done on the side edge. But if you were to have another base grind, then you would have to reset the base angles between the marks again.
          sigpic


          Osprey, Sherpa, Custom Coda 120WT, Custom DS110, Condor (Green), Spliff

          Custom Twist Out duck foot bindings, Bombers (custom duck foot base plate and 3 pads), releasable S810ti on custom duck foot riser

          Nordica N3 NXT ski boots (best so far)


          Wife: 104 SII & 100 Blunt XL with S810ti bindings on custom "adjustable duck foot" risers

          Loaners: 125LE, 105 EMP, 101 KTP, 100 Blunt XL, 98 Slapdash, 88 Blunts

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by slow View Post
            I always mark my skiboards with a center punch 1 inch toward the center from the point at which the skiboard base contacts a flat surface. To be sure they are marked the same..
            Brilliant! Thanks for the details - really good stuff.
            In pursuit of Peace, Harmony and Flow.....
            Think Like a Mountain

            Boards ridden, some owned: Sherpas, Spruce 120 "STS", Blunts, DS110 custom prototypes, Rockered Condors, Revolts, DLPs, Summit Custom 110s, Summit Marauders, Head 94s, Raptor prototypes, Osprey prototypes.

            Comment


            • #7
              2013 Spruce Base Grind and Edge Angle Set

              I had a base grind done on my 2013 Spruce 120s about 1/3 of the way through last season after riding them about 12 times. I decided to get the base grind mainly because of a nice gash I had in the base of one of the board due to something woody that I must have run over on a trail. The bases were also quite beat up already due to the harsh snow conditions early in the year.

              I checked with Jeff Singer, owner of Spruce, to determine what base and edge angles I should tell the ski shop to use when they did the base grind and tune. Jeff told me to have them use zero degree base and 2 degree (or 88 degree if you want to look at it that way) side angle. He mentioned that few people (meaning casual riders) could tell the difference between a 2 degree and 1 degree side angle. I am not sure what the angles were from the factory. The ski shop tech questioned the zero degree base angle and I had to be insistent and explain the designer of the boards had specified that. The shop detuned a small section toward tip and tail.

              The performance of the 120s was definitely improved after the base grind. I think the zero base angle improved the performance of the board. It took me 3 or 4 runs to adjust - the 120s had more "bite". These boards, at least for me, never hooked before or after the base grind - they have a "soft edge" - but with the zero degree base edge angle turn initiation was quicker. This did not impair the ability to put the boards into a soft edge turn or drift at all.
              In pursuit of Peace, Harmony and Flow.....
              Think Like a Mountain

              Boards ridden, some owned: Sherpas, Spruce 120 "STS", Blunts, DS110 custom prototypes, Rockered Condors, Revolts, DLPs, Summit Custom 110s, Summit Marauders, Head 94s, Raptor prototypes, Osprey prototypes.

              Comment


              • #8
                Any thoughts as to how much using variable edge angles can affect the way a board rides? For example, some people find that the shorter boards with a steep sidecut can be very "grabby" or are "hooking" - would variable edge angles reduce this? Eliminate it? Would the board still have good enough edge grip in the harder snow?
                In pursuit of Peace, Harmony and Flow.....
                Think Like a Mountain

                Boards ridden, some owned: Sherpas, Spruce 120 "STS", Blunts, DS110 custom prototypes, Rockered Condors, Revolts, DLPs, Summit Custom 110s, Summit Marauders, Head 94s, Raptor prototypes, Osprey prototypes.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bluewing View Post
                  Any thoughts as to how much using variable edge angles can affect the way a board rides? For example, some people find that the shorter boards with a steep sidecut can be very "grabby" or are "hooking" - would variable edge angles reduce this? Eliminate it? Would the board still have good enough edge grip in the harder snow?
                  If you mean variable base edge angle with tip and tail detuning, my limited experiments suggest that it helps avoid the hooking. My latest experiment is the KTP which I have yet to ride. Unfortunately, it may not be until after Christmas that I will be able to report if it worked.

                  On the longer DS110, I did not feel I lost any edge grip. Rather it was more predictable.

                  As for side edges, I always use 88 degree for my rock hard local snow.
                  sigpic


                  Osprey, Sherpa, Custom Coda 120WT, Custom DS110, Condor (Green), Spliff

                  Custom Twist Out duck foot bindings, Bombers (custom duck foot base plate and 3 pads), releasable S810ti on custom duck foot riser

                  Nordica N3 NXT ski boots (best so far)


                  Wife: 104 SII & 100 Blunt XL with S810ti bindings on custom "adjustable duck foot" risers

                  Loaners: 125LE, 105 EMP, 101 KTP, 100 Blunt XL, 98 Slapdash, 88 Blunts

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by slow View Post
                    If you mean variable base edge angle with tip and tail detuning, my limited experiments suggest that it helps avoid the hooking. My latest experiment is the KTP which I have yet to ride. Unfortunately, it may not be until after Christmas that I will be able to report if it worked.

                    On the longer DS110, I did not feel I lost any edge grip. Rather it was more predictable.

                    As for side edges, I always use 88 degree for my rock hard local snow.
                    Yes, referring to base angles. Looking forward to hearing the report on the KTPs.
                    In pursuit of Peace, Harmony and Flow.....
                    Think Like a Mountain

                    Boards ridden, some owned: Sherpas, Spruce 120 "STS", Blunts, DS110 custom prototypes, Rockered Condors, Revolts, DLPs, Summit Custom 110s, Summit Marauders, Head 94s, Raptor prototypes, Osprey prototypes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bluewing View Post
                      Any thoughts as to how much using variable edge angles can affect the way a board rides? For example, some people find that the shorter boards with a steep sidecut can be very "grabby" or are "hooking" - would variable edge angles reduce this? Eliminate it? Would the board still have good enough edge grip in the harder snow?
                      I have not experienced any issues with hooking since I had my tips and tails detuned on all my boards.
                      Just these, nothing else !

                      Comment

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