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  • Options in Skiboard Design , Future directions ..

    Reflecting on the introduction of the Rockered Condor to market this year and also on some of the widely different opinions on it , it really occurs to me that we as skiboarders are now blessed to have two great options in skiboard design. The first is the traditional cambered versions of skiboards well represented by the Spruce Longboards, and all the previous Revel8 boards and the second is the new Rockered Condor . Having ridden and enjoyed both types of boards in all kinds of conditions , I strongly feel that both types of skiboard design have a bright future. What these two types of design offer are gateways to different types of riding as I have tried to point out in my posts. The Rockered Condor design with it's zero camber and rockered tips and tails lends itself to a low center of gravity skate style type of style , it also lends itself well to being able to slide or "slarve " turns and lends it self to speed and flotation in deep pow ridden balanced and centered. It places a premium on careful balance around the center point on the board . Getting on edge is easy , but the carve is different and perhaps in some ways not as enjoyable and stable as on a traditional cambered skiboard with a much longer effective edge . The Rockered skiboard design really lends itself to pivot steering from the foot . The traditional cambered skiboard design lends itself to spectacular lay over stable and precise carves , and is more amenable to a higher stance more skier like style. Traditional designs also lend themselves to be ridden off a supportative tail in deep pow , and lend themselves to set back bindings . In many ways , I think the Rockered skiboard design is a more snowboard style inspired design and lends itself to partial carve sliding snowboard like turns , whereas the traditional cambered style has much in common with traditional twin tip design and hardboot alpine carving snowboards , lending itself to more precise carves .

    Is there room to meet in the middle ? Of course! The Rockered Condor is a full Rockered Skiboard design with an early tip rise and zero camber. Skis have now been designed with only a little bit of rocker and some camber in the middle, as well as full rocker designs . There is much room for experimentation in skiboard design in the years to come . Will Rockered skiboards completely replace traditionally cambered skiboards ? of course not , Was the Rockered skiboard a failed experiment? , absolutely not ... Both kinds of skiboards will remain in the future , IMHO , as both have shown their strengths , and lead the way to new hybrid designs as well .

    What we can be thankful for is that this year a plethora of true options for the first time has been offered to skiboarders... Rocker or no Rocker , hardboot or softboot , release or non release ....
    All of us have different styles , and different abilities , and different ways we like to ride our skiboards. What we can be thankful for this season is the huge combinations of boards , boots and bindings that we now have available . Thanks go to Greco , SBOL , and Jeff Singer and Spruce for offering such a variety of options . Truly a great time to be a skiboarder !
    Boards :
    Blunt Xl, DLP, Spliff, Condor, Rockered Condor , Slingshot, Sherpa, Icelantic Shaman
    Boots
    K2 BFC 100 Grip walk sole , Dynafit CR Radical AT boot, Ride Insano Snowboard boots
    Bindings:
    Zero Pro Non release Binding
    Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
    Spruce Riser with Attack 14 GW /AT binding
    Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)
    Rocker and Sbol Soft Boot Bindings.

  • #2
    Lets take a look at the fundamental difference between these two approaches and how they will affect what we can expect of the boards. As you already know, the rockered board when just placed on a flat surface will touch through the centre portion, whilst the tips (in this case about 1/3 of the length each end) gradually rise away from the flat. A cambred design is the exact opposite. Only the tips touch. Pressure the centre as if standing on the board, and the rockered board will show no change, but the cambered board will change its relationship with the surface radically, flattening out and touching along it entire running length. It is also really important to note that in the case of the cambered board, the resistance built in to generate the camber is transferred to the tip and tail when the board is flattened and becomes downward pressure on the surface. The higher the camber the board begins with, the greater the downward pressure at the tip and tail when the board is flattened.
    You can express this by saying that on the rockered boards, the tips are disengaged, whereas on the cambered board they are engaged. This is fundamental. So much of the way these boards can be used springs from this.
    Now lets consider the basic means of turning a skiboard on hardpack. There are three basics really, jump up in the air and rotate, pivot around the centre, or tip on edge and use the sidecut effect to carve.
    With the rockered design, all three options are available. With the cambered design, we cannot pivot, especially noticeable on a high camber board. We can simulate pivoting by unweighting, but this is in effect just a form of jump turn.
    So straight off, the rockered design makes a little more available. The ability to turn simply without unweighting.
    The primary reason for cambering, producing downward pressure in the tip and tail, is to aid directional stability. There are also elements of load spreading, but for the moment, they are not relevant to this part of the discussion. Directional stability is critical with long skis where crossing the tips is catastrophic, but this is hardly a problem with skiboards. We have no trouble keeping our shorties pointing in roughly the right direction.
    For folks just starting out in snow sports, the simplicity of the pivot turn is a truly turnkey asset.
    However, it is important for a carved turn to get as much of the board edge as possible engaged with the snow. It is needed both to generate 'bite' and to gain full effect of the sidecut shape. A rockered board board requires a greater angle of lean to achieve this than the cambered board so the carve initiation feels lazy and sometimes a little vague. Once up and set into a carve, everything is fine.
    Crossbow (go to dream board)
    Most everything else over time.
    Go Android

    Comment


    • #3
      A board like the 105 or ALP snaps into a carve almost like a switch, because even on the flat, the full running length and the tips are already engadged but if we can find a way to make this transition more gentle, more lazy, we can open the door to what has been labelled the Slarve turn. (In Europe we call it a side slip turn). Enter the rockered board.
      Now a Slarve turn is a very legitimate and sometimes essential tool to have in the armoury. On boards like the ALP and 105 it takes quite a bit of skill to achieve, but the rockered board kind of does it for you.
      For most experienced riders, this is likely to be the first difference they notice between the rockerd and the cambered format, assuming riding on hardpack. If you live on your edges and demand crisp carving performance, the rockered board is going to feel sloppy. If you pivot and slide your turns, the rockerd board will feel like a dream come true.
      (much more to follow) Others please join in if you want.
      Crossbow (go to dream board)
      Most everything else over time.
      Go Android

      Comment


      • #4
        This understanding is very important "If you pivot and slide your turns, the rockerd board will feel like a dream come true."... I have side slipped long skis and cambered skiboards as a defensive manuveur , when all else fails , it is not fun and I would much prefer to be carving . The first two planked snow sliding tool that made the sliding turn accessible and sort of fun was the original flexy Condor ... but the new Rockered Condor makes this turn absolutely fabulous and is eons better at it then the original Condor , I often slarve when I could carve by PREFERENCE ! the issue is that the Rockered Condor has a huge flat sliding surface directly underfoot that has zero camber with both the tips and tails out of the way ,, there is nothing to inhibit or block the slide , once you understand how to do this you can slide sideways and high speed and in total control just feathering the edge to slow down and then just spin around to the other side... YOU CANNOT do anything near like this on a cambered skiboard or ski , it is NOT fun ....on the Rockered Condor it is magic and tons of fun ... hell I have been doing it twice a week for over a month on icy groomers and still have not got tired of it .. is it the only turn I do ? of course not , I carve also but the Slarve is more a part of my toolbox then it has ever been on any other ski or skiboard.....
        Boards :
        Blunt Xl, DLP, Spliff, Condor, Rockered Condor , Slingshot, Sherpa, Icelantic Shaman
        Boots
        K2 BFC 100 Grip walk sole , Dynafit CR Radical AT boot, Ride Insano Snowboard boots
        Bindings:
        Zero Pro Non release Binding
        Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
        Spruce Riser with Attack 14 GW /AT binding
        Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)
        Rocker and Sbol Soft Boot Bindings.

        Comment


        • #5
          My experience on the RC has been limited to 1/2 day in wet "mashed potato" snow after a 8" dump of snow overnight followed by steady rain while riding the next day. My challenge was not adapting to turning the RCs; that came easy, it was intuitive and was playfully fun. Rather the challenge for my non -athletic body was maintaining a low centered/balanced posture for extended periods of time while riding over the poor gliding and rough mashed potato snow and trying to keep up to my snowboarding son. It took a heavy toll on my thighs.

          IMO the RCs are not so much about how to turn (carve or skid) but rather the greater demand it has on the rider's ability to maintain balance (front to back) for extended periods of time. I suspect those that are athletic/fit and have good natural balance from their skating experience and are fit enough to ride low will find the RCs to be a fun ride. Those not so fit such as myself, will be deliberate on when the RCs are used based on conditions.
          sigpic


          Osprey, Sherpa, Custom Coda 120WT, Custom DS110, Condor (Green), Spliff

          Custom Twist Out duck foot bindings, Bombers (custom duck foot base plate and 3 pads), releasable S810ti on custom duck foot riser

          Nordica N3 NXT ski boots (best so far)


          Wife: 104 SII & 100 Blunt XL with S810ti bindings on custom "adjustable duck foot" risers

          Loaners: 125LE, 105 EMP, 101 KTP, 100 Blunt XL, 98 Slapdash, 88 Blunts

          Comment


          • #6
            "A rockered board board requires a greater angle of lean to achieve this than the cambered board so the carve initiation feels lazy and sometimes a little vague. Once up and set into a carve, everything is fine."

            Vamorel,

            This explains so much. Thank you!

            jjue,

            As do I. I'll often glide out a turn and then intentionally set the edge hard as I want to finish the turn on hard pack.

            The behavior I mentioned in a different thread of pushing my palms down towards my heels and forward (done as if if performing an isometric exercise as opposed to a loose, quick movement) while keeping shoulders pointed down slope has really given me finite control over the slarve/carve process. I was shown that little trick by a gentle, older skier who noticed my left turn was weaker than my right. He wasn't being an ass in the least. He was being kind. He watched me from behind, noticed a deficiency, said something to me in the lift line and took a long run with me afterwards to teach the lesson. I recommend it to all. Fabulous technique for skiing and absolutely transfers into skiboarding. I am without a doubt a better skiboarder who can do more and do more in total control with this little ski technique.
            "It's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" Jiddu Krisnamurti

            Spruce Sherpa - RVL8 KTP - RVL8 Blunt XL

            Comment


            • #7
              I am going to avoid discussion regarding ice, as ice riding has a huge rider skill component, and other board characteristics such as width and stiffness probably matter more, but let's consider the situation when there is an inch or two of fresh.
              In this case, the difference between the rockered and cambered format is much less. On both formats, the edges are fully engaged due to the snow depth, and the entire running length is in contact with the snow. If your first experience of a rockered board is in these conditions, you are likely to think they feel much like a cambered board. In fact, in these conditions, the other characteristics of the board you are on, such as flex, width, length etc are going to have the greatest bearing.
              At present (winter 2011/12), the only rockered format we have is the Rockered Condor. This board has very soft flex, probably the softest 110 ever built, so what can you expect? Firstly, the conditions being discussed here very quickly get chopped up by skiers tracks. Riding this chop requires good suspension (flex) if it is to be any fun at all. This the RCondor has. It will give you a great smooth ride, but there is a sting. Be aware that a very flexible board has significantly less support to offer if you get off balance and get your weight back on the tails. To enjoy this board, you must keep centred and maintain good balance. Dont try to lean back to get the tips up, let the board and the speed do it for you.
              It also important to mention that if you like riding your boards aggressively 'off the tails' (that would be me), the RCondor is not going to work for you, but this IS NOT a function of rockering as a system, just a function of very soft tails. A cambered board built this soft would be just the same.
              A rockered DLP should ride off the tails a lot like the standard board. I have a pair of cambered Summit 110s which have almost ZERO camber, actually its 2mm, and they are a dream to ride off the tails. They are of course a fair bit stiffer than the RCondor.
              SO... in fresh, the other characteristics of the board will matter more than rocker/camber, but on the RCondor, KEEP CENTRED .
              Crossbow (go to dream board)
              Most everything else over time.
              Go Android

              Comment


              • #8
                OK, so POWDER! NOT the two or three inches of fresh that oh so many snowsliders call powder, the honest to goodness 'fall over and you can't get up' stuff! This is where the rocker system really shines, and to explain why, I have attempted some diagrams. Diagrams 1 and 2 show how a cambered ski handles this stuff. In order to keep the tips up, we have to push the tails down. The problem is, the board is essentially flat, so as it moves forward in the snowpack, there is just as much upward pressure from behind the centre line as there is from the front, so the only way to sink the tails is to transfer more weight back on to them by leaning back on the heels or by setback on the binding.
                A rockered board is not like this at all. Because the base is basically a curve, loads of lift can be generated at the front while the tail remains essentially flat, (man I hope this is clear), so backweighting is not needed. This leaves the skier able to fully concentrate on the skiing, and is oh so much less tiring. Diag 4 attempts to show this.


                The only possible downside of this system is that some say rockered boards are hard to keep straight in deep pow.
                Crossbow (go to dream board)
                Most everything else over time.
                Go Android

                Comment


                • #9
                  So in conclusion..........
                  What can we expect from rockered boards?
                  Much easier to pivot turn, less aggressive carving.
                  Better deep pow performance
                  Better at the Slarve type turn, but at the cost of some edge grip.
                  A little less directional stability.

                  Other factors such as smoother rides, more or less tip/tail support, difficulty of getting up on edge etc are generally a result of OTHER design decisions.

                  I guess the Condor was the obvious format choice for a first rockered board, but actually, I suspect a rockered DLP would tell us more.
                  Crossbow (go to dream board)
                  Most everything else over time.
                  Go Android

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'm still waiting to see something a little longer come out rockered. Giving the longer running length would give the edging of an ~100cm board while letting those tips and tails give more float in the powder.
                    I do it because I can.
                    I can because I want to.
                    I want to because you said I couldn't.

                    "The butterflies in my stomach have flown up through my throat and learned to love the open air." - World/Inferno

                    Spruce Sherpas with Prime Pros
                    '08 KTPs

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Jack/Dave, Nice posts on the design differences that make the RC so unique. I’ve expressed this concern to you personally and decided to post it to get others feedback.
                      With the RC representing such a radical difference in design to what we are used to riding, buyers of boards now need to be more careful with choosing what they buy. Otherwise, the skiboarding experience not just the RC experience could be love or hate. Prior to the RC, length, width, a riders experience, height and weight along with the type of conditions to be ridden were the import considerations. Most new riders could ride our cambered boards and enjoy the experience. Now we have riding style and posture an import part of riding criteria. I am a little concerned about uninformed riders mainly skiers buying the RC and not being able to ride it well. They might then judge all skiboards by this one experience and not try additional boards. I have to agree with Dave that perhaps I would have liked riding a long ALP/DLP rockered design better. The stiffer tail and narrower design might have made a difference in my experience based on my riding style. Until we have a skiboard like that though, I won’t know for sure. I will try that board if it becomes a reality and not judge it without riding it. With the potential that an experience like mine or Dave’s on the RC could hurt our sport, I suggest that something may need to be put in the RC description to state that this is not a board that rides like other boards, not meant for carving on hard snow and a low posture is more important on this board than cambered boards. I feel a skier looking at skiboarding for his first board needs to be gently steered away from the RC. As an aside, I noticed that skiboard comparison chart rates the RC as a 7 for carving. I think that is much too high and misleading. I don’t think I could do a lay over carve with this board except in very ideal conditions. I hope I’m not sounding negative about the RC on this post. To me, it is just so big time different from anything I’ve ridden and I cannot comfortably ride it As others ride and reflect on their experience with the RC, I hope they will post their opinions about this.
                      Now: 08 Sherpa's (2), Atomic 120's, 2013 125 Protos, 125 LEs, 2014 Sherpas, Osprey protos, 2015 Blunt XL's, 2016 Ospreys, Ethan Too twintip skis,2017 Shredfest One of kind Spliffs, 2018 Crossbows
                      Bindings: Spruce Risers and Tyrolia LD12's
                      Boots: Full Tilt Booters, Tecnica Agent 110
                      History: Atomic shorty's, Sporten, Groove Taxis, Head 94's, ALPs, Spruce 120 Blue boards, Custom Lacroixs, Rocker Condors, 08 Summit 110's, Hagan offlimits 133's, Rossi 130's, 2011 Summit Marauders

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Valmorel's analysis , I think, is critical to understanding the difference between the Rockered Condor and all other skiboards before it .... it also , I think makes sense of some of the posts on the love , hate thread I started. In nice compliant groomed snow this board is a pussy cat , no real new skills need to be developed , the board is dead easy to turn , pivot , carve , slide , it doesn't matter , whatever you want to do , or whatever you bring to the board in your own toolbox . .doesn't matter it will work . Balance is pretty easy in that kind of soft groomed snow .. Also smooth bottomless , uniform consistency pow is easy as well, just stay centered , feet together and you will float like a dream., as Valmorel has pointed out in his diagrams above. . . . . Once you move into what I call challenging snow conditions , ice , mashed potatoes, crust , crud, and variable pow the board demands learning new techniques , the board is significantly different then all previous skiboards and learning new techniques will be required. For some , this learning period will be very short .. only a couple of runs or so , to get the feel of the board .... as has been pointed out aggressive riders , those with a inline skate background , those who ride with a low center of gravity , those use to sliding their boards will have an easier time adapting ...for others it will take deliberate practice and a change in style to get the most out of this board. For me , one of the most exciting things I have done in snowsports is to change from one form of riding to another ...for example when after many years of downhill skiing I switched to telemark freeheel skiing. At first I felt very awkward , but I persisted and after 1 year or so ., I finally understood how to do it ! Teleboarding (monoboarding , water ski style on a narrow board with free heel bindings ) also took practice but the payoff was a new snow sliding experience. Skiboarding really didn't have ,for me , the difficult learning period or initiation that telemark riding or teleboarding did ... my ski skills did transfer quite well to the shorter format. To me , the Rockered Condor IS RADICAL and is DIFFERENT and DOES demand a new toolbox when ridden in challenging conditions . To me this board is very much like all the skiboards before it in good conditions , just tons easier . but move into challenging terrain and it is VERY DIFFERENT .

                        Unlike big rockered skis .. are maybe even a rockered Longboard ., and certainly more then cambered skiboards, .. a fully rockered very soft flexing ultra wide Condor , demands careful balance right around a very short center platform in challenging conditions .... speed in pow and crud , and a low center of balance really helps ... and on ice , as I have said over and over again .. learning how to do a drifting , slarve turn well , and comfortably requires practice but is essentiall. If you practice , the board becomes easy in all conditions . It is easier to turn in difficult challenging conditions then any skiboard before it and floats better in nasty crud. I don't want my Sherpa, ALP , 120 , or KTP or even my long skis. If you put in the practice and the effort , what seems like a one trick pony only good for easy groomers , and perfect pow , becomes the most powerful all mountain skiboard on the planet with a huge performance spectrum. Is this an easy skiboard for the general rider ? well , I think so on easy groomers. and in smooth uniform pow ... but take it out into challenging conditions and you may be frustrated at first ,,, it is NOT the same as any skiboard before it ... but stick with it and you will be rewarded as I have , with a door opening to another way of skiboarding . This door is not for everyone ... not everyone will want to ride their skiboards like this .... but as I have said on other threads,, this is not a small thing .. it is a big thing....it is opening the door to a new style of riding skiboards. I cannot say this any stronger.... there are many here who will try the Rockered Condor for a few runs and decide this is not for them , this is a closed door , and will go back to their other traditional skiboards , but for me I have tasted the poison on the other side and I cannot go back .. I think that there are others who will understand what I mean .... if at first the Rockered Condor seems frustrating , maybe you want to give it some practice, and some time to understand it , and maybe you will learn to love it as I have .... or maybe , as Valmorel , has understood right off ... this is NOT the kind of skiboard you want . Valmorel , is an expert skiboarder and I am positive could easily ride this board in all conditions . It is not a matter of making it work for him , it is a deep understanding of what the board is like and what it demands and an understanding that for him,that is not the kind of board or experience he wants . He loves precision carves , he lives on his edges , , this is not a pure carving board..... I am an all condition junk snow rider ,, I ride everything that is thrown at me , all conditions with a strong preference for pow , crud ,and crust LOL and less so for firm snow ., I love to slide and slarve and make two footed turns. and not necessarily always work to get this wide bodied thing on edge... yes . this Rockered Condor does it all for me better then any skiboard before and that INCLUDES my least favorite surface -- ice. So I am beyond hooked , but that is just me ......
                        Boards :
                        Blunt Xl, DLP, Spliff, Condor, Rockered Condor , Slingshot, Sherpa, Icelantic Shaman
                        Boots
                        K2 BFC 100 Grip walk sole , Dynafit CR Radical AT boot, Ride Insano Snowboard boots
                        Bindings:
                        Zero Pro Non release Binding
                        Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
                        Spruce Riser with Attack 14 GW /AT binding
                        Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)
                        Rocker and Sbol Soft Boot Bindings.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Conversely, the RCondor is not for me. I have a riding style that is wrong for this board. But it was also wrong for the original Condor too. I dont think this has much to do with rockering as such. I just dont care for the uber wide super soft format.
                          I am actually quite excited about the prospect of other rocker boards appearing in the future.
                          Crossbow (go to dream board)
                          Most everything else over time.
                          Go Android

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Can someone go into more detail on the concept of a "slarve" turn? As someone who is stil trying to perfect a basic carve, I'd like to know what a slarve is. Is it kind of like a skid? I'd love to see a video or illustration...

                            SBOL Team III Rider

                            Skiboards
                               Revel8 2010 Revolt "Bullseye" 105cm
                               Revel8 2009 Rumspringa "MaryJane" 103cm
                               Revel8 2009 Tansho 90cm (BriGirl's)
                            Bindings
                               Spruce 2011 Pro Jr Risers & Head Release Bindings
                               Spruce 2010 Pro Lite Risers & Roxy Release Bindings (BriGirl's)
                            Other
                               Salomon 2009 Mission x4 boots
                               Sims T22 Omen helmet

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bri_guy View Post
                              Can someone go into more detail on the concept of a "slarve" turn? As someone who is stil trying to perfect a basic carve, I'd like to know what a slarve is. Is it kind of like a skid? I'd love to see a video or illustration...
                              Sure thing bri guy .. here is the post I put up on this technique , with explanatory videos , including videos of me doing the turn on the Rockered Condor ... it is a side slipping , partial skidding turn ...

                              http://www.skiboardsonline.com/forum...php?t=12612#en
                              Boards :
                              Blunt Xl, DLP, Spliff, Condor, Rockered Condor , Slingshot, Sherpa, Icelantic Shaman
                              Boots
                              K2 BFC 100 Grip walk sole , Dynafit CR Radical AT boot, Ride Insano Snowboard boots
                              Bindings:
                              Zero Pro Non release Binding
                              Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
                              Spruce Riser with Attack 14 GW /AT binding
                              Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)
                              Rocker and Sbol Soft Boot Bindings.

                              Comment

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