rockered skiboards

[Mark]

i was thinking next years condors should be rockered, thoughts ? feelings ? emotions ?

[DennisEvans]

If they are, I will buy some...Gouda had this idea a while back but it didn't really seem to catch on.

[Roussel]

i agree, reverse camber for owder boards all the way.

and i also think all revel8 skiboards chould have the KTP inserts

[jjue]

I have been thinking about this alot and looking into ski design
here are some advantages and disadvantages of a rockered (reverse camber) 110 wide bodied symmetric Condor IMHO
adavantage : center of board sinks in deep pow allowing the tips and tails to float up more then it does now , the advantage will be to allow the skiboarder to ride more comfortable in a centered position without as much of a need for set back to avoid diving the tips when riding either forward or switch in deep pow , manuverability will be increased and the big board will feel smaller in deep snow ,

disadvantage , a rockered Condor will be a much less effective all mountain board , by rockering the Condor , in firm snow you will essentially lose alot of the effective edge of the board and be carving on what will be a shorter running surface , also the board will be much more sketchy on firm icy snow and slide out alot . it will be great for butters and spins but considerablly sketchier for carving on firm snow . one of the issues with skiboards is that they are short already and by rockering the board we lose more effective edge in firm snow ,
also without camber the board will be significantly more "squirrly " on firm snow when running straight

Rockering long skis is less of an issue on firm snow because they have a lot of effective edge to donate , whereas on our skiboards in firm snow , we can't afford to lose alot of that effective edge .

I think a rockered Condor might be a great pow board but would make what is a very versatile board a much more one trick pony .. certainly if that is what we want to do and have dedicated pow boards it may be the way to go .. but I tend to think most of us perfer boards that have a more all mountain performance envelope . My own experience is that often in one big mountain run I will be faced with windblown ice at the top ofc the mountain , then crust or deep pow in the trees down below , this includes both at big mountain resorts or in the backcountry . I , for one , would like to ride a board that has prowness all across the whole spectrum of snow conditions I will have to face rather then worry that I have chosen the wrong board for the day .

anyway , that is my 2 cents ..

[rie202]

could somone show what a rockered ski looks like.

and im just throwing this out there but we need like a good backcountry durable pow ski. is the condor that ski?

[Kirk S]

I have been thinking about this alot and looking into ski design
here are some advantages and disadvantages of a rockered (reverse camber) 110 wide bodied symmetric Condor IMHO
adavantage : center of board sinks in deep pow allowing the tips and tails to float up more then it does now , the advantage will be to allow the skiboarder to ride more comfortable in a centered position without as much of a need for set back to avoid diving the tips when riding either forward or switch in deep pow , manuverability will be increased and the big board will feel smaller in deep snow ,

disadvantage , a rockered Condor will be a much less effective all mountain board , by rockering the Condor , in firm snow you will essentially lose alot of the effective edge of the board and be carving on what will be a shorter running surface , also the board will be much more sketchy on firm icy snow and slide out alot . it will be great for butters and spins but considerablly sketchier for carving on firm snow . one of the issues with skiboards is that they are short already and by rockering the board we lose more effective edge in firm snow ,
also without camber the board will be significantly more "squirrly " on firm snow when running straight

I think a rockered Condor might be a great pow board but would make what is a very versatile board a much more one trick pony .. certainly if that is what we want to do and have dedicated pow boards it may be the way to go .. but I tend to think most of us perfer boards that have a more all mountain performance envelope . My own experience is that often in one big mountain run I will be faced with windblown ice at the top ofc the mountain , then crust or deep pow in the trees down below , this includes both at big mountain resorts or in the backcountry . I , for one , would like to ride a board that has prowness all across the whole spectrum of snow conditions I will have to face rather then worry that I have chosen the wrong board for the day .

anyway , that is my 2 cents ..

we need to have a chat. I have ideas

[jjue]

sure Kirk , send me an email , you have my email address ,
this is a fascinating idea for sure
here is some more about pros and cons from the long ski forums
http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubb...d_Skis_Verdict

if you look at the current crop of rockered or reverse camber skis , the initial real weird boards with wide waists and smaller tips and tails are being replaced with some less weird boards with less rocker , a more traditional side cut and even some camber in the middle with rocker at the tips and the tails , these are touted as more all mountain boards with better performance on firm snow , the problem is if you look at all the ski literature , all of these skis "ski small " with less effective edge and often the adage is to go big in sizing to get more edge for firm snow ,
I think the most important thing for me with our much shorter skiboards is the bottom line of not losing precious effective edge . In firm snow much of the joy of riding a longer board like the 110s over a 99 is haviing a longer running edge .

The k2 hellbent is a pretty well received rockered twin that is getting good reviews . here is what a guy who loves his hellbent says about his 189 cm long ski on firm snow
"As you might expect, the Hellbents pretty much suck on boilerplate, hardpack and bumps. I went back to my Volkl Mantras once the spring ice/corn/slush cycle was on, as well as when it hadn't snowed for a long time."

I am not sure I would really want a Condor that sucked on hardpack or spring conditions even if it was fab in the pow !

[Roussel]

another idea would be to have tails smaller than the waists. couple of brands have this kind of ski, bsically the width of the ski just gets smaller from the nose down. check out the K2 pontoon

http://www.biglines.com/photos/norma...ines_52908.jpg

[jjue]

the original idea in pow skis was to have reverse side cut and reverse camber (rockered ) skis like the pontoon or the spatula , the problem with these boards is that they are very specific pow skis and are real a challenge to ski on firm snow ,
often of course you are having to ski firm snow going out to deep pow and folks have been trying to make skis that do better in pow but still have reasonable performance in firm snow , thus the newer rockered skis that have more normal side cut .... ..

[Roussel]

ya i could imagine both ides being terrible for groomed runs, still be interesting to try out the ideas on skiboards, see if they could be applied and work the same way.

[jjue]

ya i could imagine both ides being terrible for groomed runs, still be interesting to try out the ideas on skiboards, see if they could be applied and work the same way.

yes , i agree Roussell . very interesting indeed ..
The major advantage for skiboards that I see , is there will be less need to ride the tails in deep pow while riding centered ,
skiboards are already super manuverable in deep pow , so I don't know whether increasing manuverability that is a big deal ..

From what I have read even Brett thinks a 4cm set back on the Condor helps in deep pow .. my prediction is that on a rockered Condor there would be no need for that set back and he could ride just as well and aggressively from a centered position without the need for putting as much weight to the tail
The major downside is that rockering a skiboard would decrease it's effective edge in firm snow .

for those who are not completely sure what we are talking about
here is some information about rockered skis
http://www.evogear.com/knowledgebase.aspx?kbid=494

and here is an interesting you tube vid of how these skis perform in deep pow

[jjue]

by the way , I ride pow every weekend and the main reason I am not clamoring for a rockered skiboard is that the design of Jeff's 130 sherpa does everything I want in pow and also is an all mountain design .. but some of that most certainly has to do with its length and its assymetric design , and I can certainly see how the 110 symmetric Condor which essentially has a similar float as the Sherpa could be tweaked with a rockered design to improve its performance in deep pow . With the Condor's significantly shorter length, I can imagine there is more of a tendency to dive tips in deep snow from a center position compared to the 130 cm long Sherpa . I can see how a rockered Condor could be ridden very aggressively from center without worry about diving tips . My main worry would be how weirdly such a skiboard would perform on firm snow .

[TheGoudaDoctor]

jjue, thats some damn good insight. Greco should hire you as an engineer or something.

And I understand what you say about the firm snow disadvantages of a rockereed condor BUT, what if instead of rocker, you gave it zero camber. Then, in pow it would flex as if it was rockered, but it would stay pretty solid on groomers, right?

I know that the Eric Hjorleifson pro by 4FRNT is zero camber, and I guess that its an amazing backcountry ski that is able to hold its own in park and firmsnow.

[jjue]

,,, And I understand what you say about the firm snow disadvantages of a rockereed condor BUT, what if instead of rocker, you gave it zero camber. Then, in pow it would flex as if it was rockered, but it would stay pretty solid on groomers, right?

I know that the Eric Hjorleifson pro by 4FRNT is zero camber, and I guess that its an amazing backcountry ski that is able to hold its own in park and firmsnow.

Absolutely Gouda , you are correct.. , I really do think that zero camber is a much more fertile ground for exploration in skiboards then a rockered board .. I have skiboards that have essentially lost most of their camber , and some which I have decambered even more by putting on a Fritschi binding and locking down the bar . The zero camber or minimal camber boards actually do pretty well on groomers.

[TheGoudaDoctor]

Exactly Jack. If your boards hold their own on firmer snow, then a board with a flex pattern as interesting as the Condor would not only do well on firm snow, but it would destroy powder.

I believe that zero camber is the most advantageous form for a powder geared skiboard, that wants to keep its all-mountain abilities.