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  • 4x4 inserts on skis

    I'm starting to foray into longer boards with my recent purchase of the Condors, and also curious about getting a pair of twin tips.

    I would love to use my Spruce Risers on all of my skiboards/skis so i only need to own one pair of bindings and can easily switch around my kit.

    I've done some research on inserts and have found that it's not unheard of for skis and the parts are readily available. I still had a few questions I thought some of the experienced folks on here could shed some light on:
    1. Would the typical, knowledgeable neighborhood ski shop mount risers for me, or would I have to find a specialist of sorts to do that?
    2. Are there any technical reasons for using the 4x10 pattern on longboards/skis? I understand that it was developed to prevent the use of nonrelease bindings on longboards. However, I have an older model Spruce Riser that only has the 4x4 pattern, so I would get my skis set up up with 4x4 inserts. I don't imagine any issues with 4x4 from a performance perspective but I thought it would be good to ask.

  • #2
    4x4 inserts on skis

    If you are talking about getting 4x4 inserts installed into skis, I don't think may shops will do this as it involves drilling though the base of the skis. It's even getting hard to find a shop to do work on inserts in snowboards now. This may be a project you have to do yourself. I managed to install inserts into a set of Fischer XXLs using the speciality drill bit and t nuts sold by Tognar, but it wasn't easy. Bill and Valmorel on the forum have done a much better job with their expertise and home workshops. I'm sure they would have better advice for you.

    There is no reason you can't do it, I just have a feeling there may be better and less invasive solutions with the new rail systems folks are using.
    Just these, nothing else !

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Bad Wolf View Post
      If you are talking about getting 4x4 inserts installed into skis, I don't think may shops will do this as it involves drilling though the base of the skis.
      This is true. Even if they would attempt it, I wouldn't trust just any shop to do it correctly.

      Is your riser plastic or aluminum? Either way, it's possible to modify it to accept 4x10 inserts. That, or acquiring a newer 4x10 compatible riser would be the smart play. 4x10 is a firmer, more leveraged connection, and would let you use your riser on any of the Spruce longboards as well.

      If you'd like to try installing inserts yourself, here's a recent thread on the topic:

      https://www.skiboardsonline.com/foru...hlight=inserts

      Spruce is now offering the Head Caddy and Ethan Too short twintips with 4x10 inserts. Those are both super-nice short skis. That's the route I would go. Those skis with inserts already installed and ready to go is the deal of the century.

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      • #4
        Thanks for the info guys!

        I'm wondering as well, I've seen the "helicoil" inserts several places online that don't have that "t" component at the bottom (they just go in like a normal self-tapping binding screw would). Would those be easier to install as they don't require going through the base? I'm not sure if they are the M6 standard though.

        I think the insert installation is well beyond my capabilities as a handyman so I'd have to find a shop that might do that kind of work, or just get a normal direct mount on skis. I'm more hopeful they'd be willing to install those helicoil inserts.

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        • #5
          Helicoils have been used to successfully secure direct mount bindings to skiboards, but I don't believe they would be strong enough for a 4x4 application.
          Just these, nothing else !

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          • #6
            Originally posted by snowjam View Post
            I've seen the "helicoil" inserts several places online that don't have that "t" component at the bottom (they just go in like a normal self-tapping binding screw would). Would those be easier to install as they don't require going through the base? I'm not sure if they are the M6 standard though.
            M6 female threaded helicoil-type stainless steel inserts are available from vendors like McMaster-Carr, Grainger and MSC. The ones sold by Tognar and others are usually M5. I've experimented with these in relatively thick long skis on a 4x10 pattern. They've never pulled out, but I did spin one when removing a binding, and once was enough. Since that happened, I've gone exclusively to through-the-bottom t-nuts.

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            • #7
              Thanks for all of the great information, guys.

              Looks like the best solution will be to use direct mount bindings if I get skis. Luckily I have a spare set laying around that just need brakes

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              • #8
                Consider the Head / Tyrolia PR rail system. I've put it on a couple of my boards (and one skiboard) and a couple of other skis that our family owns also came with it. So we can swap our skis easily. The ease of removal and installation of the bindings (takes 30 seconds, no tools) is really great and a big space saver vs. having the bindings permanently mounted to the skis. I can stack several pairs of skis in the space of a single pair, with the bindings in a separate bag. And I think the bindings that work with the PR system are lightweight and quite decent. I wish it could be mounted on a riser for easy swapping between boards, but it covers the bolts (it can be mounted easily, but removing/installing the riser is difficult with it installed).

                An alternative for you might be to install the bindings on your riser using M5 screws and install inserts for the bindings on the skis. There is less stress on these inserts (8 per binding vs. 4 per riser) so I think the chance of a failure is minimized if the bindings are moved vs. moving the entire riser. If you go easy on the torque and the inserts are mounted precisely where they need to be, I think the chance of a bolt seizing and the insert twisting in place would be small.

                I wonder if we can come-up with a little washer-type contraption that could be mounted from the top around the inserts, with little bumps that go into the inserts' flat head driver slot. That washer could be hex-shaped or rectangular, the thickness of the top sheet, and epoxied flush with the top sheet. It is not intended to hold the insert down (although it could be), but the primary function is to secure it from rotating in place. This way all work is done through the top. At this point, I'm not sure if it is any less work than doing it from the bottom though (which with the right tools is not that hard and much more secure than from the top)...

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kocho View Post
                  Consider the Head / Tyrolia PR rail system.
                  +++1 The Power Rail system is now my binding system of choice. The recent Ospreys I picked up also have the Power Rails. You can buy all levels of bindings for these - lightweight (PR10 or 11), full diagonal (PRD11), high end full diagonal (PRD12, or 14), or race (PRX 12) and some others I'm sure I am forgetting.

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                  • #10
                    *thread resurrection alert*

                    I've been toying with getting some skis but want to use the riser system for them. The main things I've seen regarding why installing inserts from the top is a bad call is the 4 mounting points. Would using all 8 holes in the riser help with the issue?

                    Side note: I read the "insert installation" thread by Bill. I think I did find extra long m6 tee nut inserts, but as much as I would love to do a secure connection from the bottom, I'm not sure that I would have the skills or tools to accomplish the job.

                    This is all theoretical but don't want to pull the trigger on anything until I have a clearer idea of the feasibility.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Toro View Post

                      I've been toying with getting some skis but want to use the riser system for them.

                      This is all theoretical but don't want to pull the trigger on anything until I have a clearer idea of the feasibility.
                      The desire to use one set of risers on skis, longboards and skiboards comes up fairly frequently, but really isn't feasible. There just isn't a reliable way to install skiboard inserts in skis, and even if you could, would they be strong enough, even with the 4x10 pattern?

                      I think the rail system Spruce uses may be the best/easiest option. That way you can just move the bindings around. Not quite as quick as swapping out a riser, but not bad.

                      I inserted the Binding Freedom system on my skis and risers. That allows me to move one set of bindings around between all my skis and boards. It's not as quick as a riser system, but does cut down on bulk and weight when travelling.
                      Just these, nothing else !

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Toro View Post
                        *thread resurrection alert*

                        I've been toying with getting some skis but want to use the riser system for them. The main things I've seen regarding why installing inserts from the top is a bad call is the 4 mounting points. Would using all 8 holes in the riser help with the issue?
                        Years ago, I did a few pair of skis with top-down helicoil-style 4x10 inserts. None of them ever pulled out, but a few of them spun---"spun" meaning they turned with the screw when taking off the riser, stripping the threads joining the insert to the ski. This made riser-removal highly problematic. Using all 8 holes would double the chances of having this happen. My advice would be to either tool up (or find a shop) to install proper bottom-up t-nuts, or (as Badwolf suggests) use the nifty Tyrolia power rail system.

                        It's a shame this isn't easier to do, but there's one way that is easy. Spruce is offering some of their short skis---like the excellent Ethan Too--- with 4x10 inserts professionally installed. A time (or two or three) I've installed inserts in skis that I ended up not caring for and regretted going to the trouble. The Ethan Too's (and Caddies) are pretty much sure things ;-)

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                        • #13
                          I bought some of these , all though I haven't put them to a board yet . When I make time I will.


                          Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Toro View Post
                            *thread resurrection alert*

                            I've been toying with getting some skis but want to use the riser system for them. The main things I've seen regarding why installing inserts from the top is a bad call is the 4 mounting points. Would using all 8 holes in the riser help with the issue?

                            Side note: I read the "insert installation" thread by Bill. I think I did find extra long m6 tee nut inserts, but as much as I would love to do a secure connection from the bottom, I'm not sure that I would have the skills or tools to accomplish the job.

                            This is all theoretical but don't want to pull the trigger on anything until I have a clearer idea of the feasibility.
                            What length skis are you talking about?

                            There are the binding freedom type inserts, but I don't believe they will be strong enough to attach Spruce risers. The screws on the risers need a lot of torque to keep them from twisting on the boards, and that amount of tension will most certainly pull those inserts out of the skis. I'm pretty sure you'll need tee nut inserts. I suggest talking to Jeff @ Spruce on what he thinks.

                            I have switched to PR (for me) and SLR rails (for kids) on skis and love them. I have extra PR and SLR tracks and will be experimenting with putting them on Spruce risers, but some of the 4x10 holes definitely get covered up without custom modification.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Fun Machine View Post
                              What length skis are you talking about?
                              Not sure at this point, definitely on the shorter end but maybe not the Spruce short skis end. (160s probably)

                              I love the design and shape of skiboards, curious what happens if they were extended. There aren’t that many skis that are similar build so not really pursuing actively.

                              If the riser system could be implemented on that pair of skis then the choice becomes easier. T-nuts are preferable based on my reading, but wouldn’t want to do the job myself due to lack of experience/tooling, and it sounds like shops are no-gos. I could swing inserts installed from the top but they don’t sound structurally sound for riser purposes.

                              Looks like the Power Rail is best option if I find some skis I like/interest me.


                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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