Transitioning: Ski board options needed

[everest8850]

Hi - would be delighted to hear views from the many resident experts here on skis/skiboards. Here's the context. I'm 53, ski at a low-intermediate level and have a lower leg disability. Long story short, I was in hospital for a long time in 1998 from a bad nerve disorder - and both my calves do not work and the right foot has a condition called foot drop where you can't lift the foot up. As you can imagine, the right leg in particular has, in a ski context, not much fore/aft control at all and the left foot only partial. I've had nearly 30 years of alpine climbing and expedition climbing experience globally( with 20 of those as a disabled climber) but ski badly. Hoping to get better at skiing but getting equipment adapted to my condition is hard, and getting my weight forward to the front is also tricky because of the lack of fore-aft control. I'm wondering if getting shorter skis of standard skis would work, or would long skiboards be an answer? I'm 5'8", at 155lbs dripping wet. I'm looking at (being a ski agnostic) getting better at skiing overall with a view of doing more powder/offpiste as I get better and venturing into ski mountaineering. I currently ski on 160cm type planks, in the 90mm width, and have some AT boots. Near future - looking at skiing 80% groomers and 20% BC. Should I be looking at:

1) getting shorter skis of the same kind of models I am looking at eg 140?145cm?150? lengths?
or
2) getting something like the Hagan Offlimits which arent too wide for groomers, and yet float and turn nicely in powder for lighter riders like me, and have some uphill skinning virtues. If 'yes', what kind of mounting positioning might I need.

Interested to hear folks who have skied on skis SHORTER than those meant for their height and weight, as well as those who switched over to the longer skiboards which I understand have a different flex profile, as well as mounting positioning

Many thanks for reading and responding to this long post!

[Wookie]

... Interested to hear folks who have skied on skis SHORTER than those meant for their height and weight...

Shorter than "meant for their height and weight" wraps up just about everyone on this forum. Most of us are riding 90-115 cm skiboards that, by length, would be the recommendation for small kids but based on your background I think I get the type of feedback you are looking for. Hopefully my comments and other forum member comments can keep you on the slopes and increase your enjoyment with some constructive information.

So for reference I am 6'5" 220lbs and have been riding a 115cm boards. My wife is 5'4" 150lbs and rides 120cm boards. Both of our set-ups work great in all but deep powder conditions. So for resort riding and light powder going shorter works. Most skiboards are wider than their long ski cousins which helps add float while staying short

For your situation here some pros and cons to consider

PROS:

• Skiboards can be "steered" more than long skis meaning you can compensate for the lack of fore/aft pressuring (good ski form) and turn skiboards by twisting of the leg, a move that long skis would punish you for.
• Skiboards are lighter. With your reduced lower leg muscle control having less wight below the ankle can reduce fatigue and make it easier to steer or lift your boards to correct them if you get out of position
• Skiboards are less dependent of good ski form
• Skiboards can comfortably and enjoyably be ridden from an upright body position
• The shorter length may be less likely to injure you when you fall (less of a lever to twist you leg, knee, etc.).

CONS:

• While being less form dependent, skiboards and short skis may require more balance (especially at high speeds). This is due to less ski length ahead and behind you.
• Skiboards provide less float in powder
• Skiboards provide less effective edge in hard pack and icy conditions and may side slip more than you've experienced with skis

If I was in your situation I would look to reduce the length of my skis to see if I was more comfortable on the slopes. I am not sure what is commercially available to you in Singapore but if you are on 160cm production skis try renting a 130 or 140 cm ski and see if it feels right. If is does is may be all you need or you may want to take a step further and drop down into the core skiboard range at in 90-110cm. Note that short skiboards feel closer to roller or ice skates than skis. If you still have the muscle control to skate then short skiboards would work for you. If the thought of being on skates is out of the question for you than the lower end (by length) of the skiboard world may be too short for your

Some other thoughts to consider. With production skis look for skis with a gentle tip and tail rocker. Rocker makes it easier to initiate turns and reduces the chance that you "hook" a tip or tail if your form is off. Rocker also shortens the effective edge when on the flat making them less forgiving on form. Rocker also keeps your tips up when plowing through crud and power.

Last thought - If adjusting ski length does not work to boost your enjoyment on the mountain but you definitely want to keep yourself out there consider some thing like a Ski Bike or a Ski Trikke. These give you the same feel as skiing but allow you to control the angle of your skis with your whole body thereby compensating for any leg issues.

Something like one of these products:
https://sno-go.us/
http://hillstrike.com/

Just make sure they are permitted at the hills you ski. There is at least one Trikke rider on the forum, perhaps more, maybe they can chime in.

Cheers! Good luck!

[wjeong]

I would not recommend the Hagan Offlimits. It is a great short ski, but requires your weight to be shifted forward on hard stops to stop the tendency to spin the heals. The heels are also so short that you cannot ride them without impacting the way they grip on hard snow. ]

[shortydude]

Everest, first off WELCOME to SBOL! Everyone here hopes you soon feel like family and keep coming back.

You're certainly headed in the right direction wanting to go shorter. IMHO a specially designed skiboard will way out perform a regular short ski. This community has tested way more ideas and concepts than the big companies could ever hope to come up with.

My ski club does a fund raiser just about every year and sponsors sending young adults to an adaptive skiing school in Winter Park, Colorado. I would advise contacting them and see what they say about your legs and feet.
http://nscd.org/program/alpine-skiin...ding-ski-bike/

IMHO, the best place to start would be with a great custom boot fitter. They correct, compensate and stabilize everything to optimize energy and force transfers between you and the boards.

[Quattrofan]

I would also strongly suggest that you go to https://www.pugski.com/ and join up. There are many forum topics to post your questions to and you will definately get responses

[everest8850]

short skis or skiboards...

"... try renting a 130 or 140 cm ski and see if it feels right. If is does is may be all you need or you may want to take a step further and drop down into the core skiboard range at in 90-110cm. Note that short skiboards feel closer to roller or ice skates than skis. If you still have the muscle control to skate then short skiboards would work for you. If the thought of being on skates is out of the question for you than the lower end (by length) of the skiboard world may be too short for your

Some other thoughts to consider. With production skis look for skis with a gentle tip and tail rocker. Rocker makes it easier to initiate turns and reduces the chance that you "hook" a tip or tail if your form is off. Rocker also shortens the effective edge when on the flat making them less forgiving on form. Rocker also keeps your tips up when plowing through crud and power."

HI - Wookie - many thanks for that incredibly useful outline of what might work for me ( and thanks also to all the others - I've been reading Wendell's decades old comments on skiboards!) --- I do have a pair of old Salomon Verse 500 "snowblades' - 130cm long with a 73cm width. Tried that for an afternoon, and it turned sweet, but had a bumpy ride on crud - which mmediately let me know that 'short' skis dont have quite the same torsional stability. So the challenge still goes on - but one British guy ( Rick Paris) who is a short ski/skiboard proponent said something that resonated with me: The typical recreational skier isnt going to be able to clock in enough ski days a year to truly crank out what a 'long' ski can deliver; so they limp along each year not quite getting good enough. It does however, sustain a ski 'industry' of instructors, annual newe launches of skis and so on... Since then I've been a bt more agnostic. Ultimately, its about having fun and getting down the mountain in a more controlled fashion (whatever the style) - which suits my mountaineer's brain. Thanks also for that tip about REAR/tail rockers which i hadnt quite realised; and their reduced 'hook' factor when skidding or making a turn. I cant 'skate' as you till need some plantarflexion. I suspect going for a shorter, wider type ski would work. however, lookinga t all the posts and reviews of long-form skiboards makes me wonder which one might work for my needs.

[everest8850]

Hagan weight forward

Wjeong - thanks for chiming in. I recall reading somewhere the severe rear-of-centre (12cm?) setting for the Hagans - fun in powder, but with some tradeoffs. Would mounting a releasable touring binding like the Marker F10/12 in a dead-centred mount help. again - for my objectives and unique context, I wont be skiing fast; shredding powder and making big jumps (!). It would be great if a centre mounted long skiboard could work for me both on groomers (80%) with some backcountry skinning capability. Or maybe shift the mounting 6cm rear of centre only...(??)

I've found quite a few short skis in the 140cm range from the Rossignol Smash 7 to quite afew others. Just wondered if it was worth pursuing research into the longer skiboards. Spruce Sherpas a bit too wide I think for me. Not sure about the Summit Marauders. I think if I went "skiboard" - itd have to be the longer types and there are so few out there

tradeoffs, I know - thanks for your expertise and experience for posting here!

[Bad Wolf]

Hi - would be delighted to hear views from the many resident experts here on skis/skiboards. Here's the context. I'm 53, ski at a low-intermediate level and have a lower leg disability. Long story short, I was in hospital for a long time in 1998 from a bad nerve disorder - and both my calves do not work and the right foot has a condition called foot drop where you can't lift the foot up. As you can imagine, the right leg in particular has, in a ski context, not much fore/aft control at all and the left foot only partial

There are many advantages to skiboards. There are quick to turn, nimble, maneuverable, versatile, but the cost for all that fun is fore/aft stability. Skiboards can be hard work. Not so much on the groomers, but certainly in the bumps, the tress, powder and crud. Of course the better your ability to balance, the less work you need to stay upright. As you move up in length from skiboards to skis, there will be a trade off with maneuverability for stability. The injuries you have will effect that equation, so the key may be finding just the right length that still lets you have fun, but without the work.

You mentioned a difficulty in getting forwards on the ski to pressure the tips. despite the challenges shorter skis present with fore/aft balance, they do ride well with a centered stance, so maybe not a bad idea.

I never used to ride anything over 100cm, but my knees and back are finding it harder and harder to enjoy my time on the slopes. I moved to the 130 cm Sherpas towards the end of this season and was still able to have fun and stay out longer. A couple of years ago I also swapped from non release bindings to release bindings on a riser. The ability to just step in and go is so much easier than bending over to snap on toe clips and do up leashes. Getting old, but still having fun.

[jjue]

Hi Everest8850,
Welcome to the forum . I have done a lot of backcountry and resort riding on short skis and on skiboards and I think with your needs it certainly would be worth trying that route and it may turn out to be easier and more enjoyable overall then your current 160cm ski . I am larger then you weighing about 200 lbs and six foot tall . I used the Hagan Off limits for quite a while mounted as suggested by the manufacturer with the rear mounted set up with Dynafit AT bindings . For powder and backcountry the ski works very well set up with the center line of your boot matched to the recommended centerline marked on the board , This is a rear set position . In powder on such a short ski it is very important to be rear mounted to keep the tips up . Works very well that way and is excellent for climbing. On firm snow as Wjeong says the tails tend to wash out and it does not have as good a grip on firm icy snow but I have made it work in that condition by just sliding a bit . The ski is very easy to turn and easier then a 160cm ski . It can be drilled for a regular AT binding . At your weight it would be a good choice .
Other options are short skis produced by Spruce skis . The Spruce sherpa , Osprey , or Crossbows. Check out spruceskis.com.
The Sherpa is a very wide 130 cm ski which at your weight and size might be overkill . The Ospreys are a Sherpa with zero camber and rocker which makes it easier to turn and could be a consideration , Both the Sherpa and Osprey will float like a regular pow ski for you but be easier to turn . A little harder to get over on edge then a narrower ski like the Hagan . The Crossbows are an excellent ski at 115cm and narrower in the tips and tails then the Sherpa and Ospreys and easier to turn . Like the Hagans they work best in the set back position in backcountry conditions allowing the heels to sink and the tips to go up . One difference with the Spruce boards is that they are not meant to be drilled for bindings and require a plate or riser to mount with bindings . There is a commercial spruce riser with a down hill release binding mounted on a riser that is screwed into the board on inserts rather then drilled . For AT bindings a custom mount needs to be arranged with Jeff Singer the owner of Spruce .
One board which was another option but is no longer made was the 143 cm Icelantic Scout which works quite well at resort and in the backcountry and can be drilled for bindings .
Hope this helps ,
you can check out the Backcountry skiboarding section on this forum for lots more information on different skiboards and short skis , videos and photos .
For example check out this link which has a video of me riding the Spruce Crossbow in the backcountry . and my Buddy Billy on Hagan Off limits
https://www.skiboardsonline.com/foru...ad.php?t=16945
Good luck and let me know if you have other questions .

[Wookie]

...The typical recreational skier isn't going to be able to clock in enough ski days a year to truly crank out what a 'long' ski can deliver; so they limp along each year not quite getting good enough. It does however, sustain a ski 'industry' of instructors, annual new launches of skis and so on... Since then I've been a bit more agnostic. Ultimately, its about having fun and getting down the mountain in a more controlled fashion...

This pretty much sums up what most avid Skiboards and members of this forum know. The ski industry is one of the worst in sports for pushing "pro style" gear and endless cycles of lessons and/or gadgets to help you ski better when the truth is most skiers just need a pair of short rockered ski to enjoy the mountain. When I took my wife from a 150cm ski to a shorter pair her whole attitude on the mountain changed and she started having fun again.

So find what works for you and keeps you on the hill and go for it!!

Side question: Your profile notes you are based in Singapore .... Where are you skiing? Indoor skiing or are you shooting over to New Zealand or somewhere? Just curious.

[wjeong]

Wjeong - thanks for chiming in. I recall reading somewhere the severe rear-of-centre (12cm?) setting for the Hagans - fun in powder, but with some tradeoffs. Would mounting a releasable touring binding like the Marker F10/12 in a dead-centred mount help. again - for my objectives and unique context, I wont be skiing fast; shredding powder and making big jumps (!). It would be great if a centre mounted long skiboard could work for me both on groomers (80%) with some backcountry skinning capability. Or maybe shift the mounting 6cm rear of centre only...(??)

I've found quite a few short skis in the 140cm range from the Rossignol Smash 7 to quite afew others. Just wondered if it was worth pursuing research into the longer skiboards. Spruce Sherpas a bit too wide I think for me. Not sure about the Summit Marauders. I think if I went "skiboard" - itd have to be the longer types and there are so few out there

tradeoffs, I know - thanks for your expertise and experience for posting here!

Yes. Mounting the bindings forward helps a lot with the Hagan. However, you will lose some of the powder handling capability and have to sit back in powder.

[Quattrofan]

There are many advantages to skiboards. There are quick to turn, nimble, maneuverable, versatile, but the cost for all that fun is fore/aft stability. Skiboards can be hard work. Not so much on the groomers, but certainly in the bumps, the tress, powder and crud. Of course the better your ability to balance, the less work you need to stay upright. As you move up in length from skiboards to skis, there will be a trade off with maneuverability for stability. The injuries you have will effect that equation, so the key may be finding just the right length that still lets you have fun, but without the work.

You mentioned a difficulty in getting forwards on the ski to pressure the tips. despite the challenges shorter skis present with fore/aft balance, they do ride well with a centered stance, so maybe not a bad idea.

I never used to ride anything over 100cm, but my knees and back are finding it harder and harder to enjoy my time on the slopes. I moved to the 130 cm Sherpas towards the end of this season and was still able to have fun and stay out longer. A couple of years ago I also swapped from non release bindings to release bindings on a riser. The ability to just step in and go is so much easier than bending over to snap on toe clips and do up leashes. Getting old, but still having fun.

You are quite right that skiboards can be harder and they can actually be harder to use than skiis. I started skiboarding when I couldn't get the hang of regular skiis. At the point I finally hit that "Aha moment" I realized I felt more stable on longer boards till I eventually got back to regular skiis. I did like the Sherpas but they were a bit to wide plus I didn't like the xtra weight of the risers.

Another part of skiboarding I didn't prefer were the short radius turns. Due to my own bad knee problems I have alot of pain when transitioning so I generally prefer GS style turns if room permits.

As we all know the remarks from skiers, "skiboards, blades" are not short skiis and come with their own skill sets needed. Sort of like the difference between hardball and softball. Similar but different

[everest8850]

Skis and skiboards for disabilities

Wendell: Thanks for the tip. There's a dearth of long skiboards in the aftermarket I'll say? Couldnt find any Offlimits or Scouts. I'll keep looking at these options and maybe also consider regular skis but in the shorter lengths ie 140/145cm, with twin-tips, rocker, and in the 90mm range. I have a Marker F12 binding thats nice on the down, and OK on the up.. Again, at this stage, I hope to be doing 80/20 ...piste/pow. Any other ideas or shorter skis (not skiboards) you've tried but liked? Would be good to read about them here. I read reviews on the SpruceSKis site for Head Ethan Too and Caddy Jrs in the 140cm range too - very useful

Wookie: The only snow happening here in tropical Singapore is "Snow City" an indoor snow playground for mainly kids with a 60m snow slope. I ski mainly in Japan - specifically in pow heaven, Hokkaido in the north; having been three times since I revived my old creaky, and now, partially disabled legs for skiing. With 50 feet of powder a year - you'll like it over there - not to mention the hot springs and Japanese food. Seen very few skiboarders though. It's dominated by Snowboarders shredding the pow. In March I was on Asahidake (the highest peak on thenorth island at 2220m). We skinned up to the fumaroles which were pumping out steam like a firehose, and then skied down to the base - some experience! - but not through the trees (I'm not good enough). Let me know if you want some beta for a trip up to Hokkaido. While I've climbed a bunch of virgin peaks in the greater ranges up to 20000ft as a climber, a cool dream is to do one of these 'easy' peaks and then ski down.....

[Murph]

Everest8850,

As you are skiing in Japan I would also vouch for Spruce Ospreys as great skiboards and would not be put off by their width. My wife is Japanese, so I have skiied in Japan many times over the years and found the ospreys to be the most playful and fun skiboards or skis I have taken over there (especially in powder). With a riser set up they are very easy to turn, skid or carve. They are extremely stable boards fore and aft, on and off piste. I am a lot heavier than you and the ospreys have no trouble floating me in waist deep Japanese powder. With risers they can also be mounted set back for powder and are very easy and compact to carry in your luggage with a binding removed.

You mentioned the summit marauders and Ethan too's which I also own. The marauders are great boards, but have far less float and stability in variable snow than the Ospreys. The ospreys are also easier to turn than the cambered marauders.

The Ethan too's I own are 161cm (not 141cm which Spruce Mountain sell). They are fairly stiff skis which plow through crud and variable snow well and are very stable (I haven't yet skiied them in deep powder). They however don't turn any where near as easily as the either of these skiboards and I have found that I do occasionally catch the tails.

Cheers
Murph

[everest8850]

Everest8850,
The Ethan too's I own are 161cm (not 141cm which Spruce Mountain sell). They are fairly stiff skis which plow through crud and variable snow well and are very stable (I haven't yet skiied them in deep powder). They however don't turn any where near as easily as the either of these skiboards and I have found that I do occasionally catch the tails.

Cheers
Murph

Thanks Murph - I left for a 2 week trip to Japan on the 9th and missed your post . Back now - thanks for sharing your thoughts! Overall, with my disabled lower legs and sucky fore-aft control, getting shorter, fatter, turn-ier skis seems the way to go. I tried a 130cm Salomon Verse 500 skis a couple of years ago and found them abit squirrelly in crud etc, not to mention they still had a relatively bigger turn radius of 12m for their (short) length owing to their skinnier geometry. I'm currently on a Salomon Q90, 161cm ski (130-87-119) with a short front rocker and very slight tail rocker, and turns at 13.8m - short for a ski like this, but still a bit of a struggle for me..I've been researching a whole bunch of skis that might fit the bill for "approach skis with skins", 70% piste 30% offpiste, "turn-y" with some twin tips or twin rocker and some float as well and have shortlisted the following. happy to hear thoughts from you and others.

1) Head Ethan Too skis in 141cm length - though harder to find online since Head nixed those models last year

2) Fischer Ranger:
Ski Size: 142cm
Ski Turn Radius: 10m
Ski Sidecut: 124-88-112mm

3)Atomic Punkz III (Jr). 140cm. 122-85-112. Radius 10.6

As for more skiboard like planks eg Hagan Offlimits and Ospreys - I'm still undecided if these shouldgo onthe shortlist owing to the differences in binding positioning. Getting a Hagan witha more forward binding eg 6cm back rather than the default 12cm back might be an acceptable tradeoff for more control frontside, at the expense of tip diving propensity in powder (which I am not quite good for yet). How do you find your Ospreys behave vis a vis mounting/positioning et al? The skiboard shift requires a bit more thinking for me, but encouraged to hear your good experience wth them in Japan!
Thanks