Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Interesting view on hard v.s. softboots

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Interesting view on hard v.s. softboots

    This is coming from splitboarders, but I am wondering about how relevant it would be to skiboarders? One of the biggest issues I see is that cost isn't considered (light hard boots and light AT bindings cost a lot, obviously). I want to know what you guys think.

    http://www.splitboard.com/talk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8706

  • #2
    Originally posted by cyborg View Post
    This is coming from splitboarders, but I am wondering about how relevant it would be to skiboarders? One of the biggest issues I see is that cost isn't considered (light hard boots and light AT bindings cost a lot, obviously). I want to know what you guys think.

    http://www.splitboard.com/talk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8706
    Backcountry skiboarding is really in it's infancy and as a community we are really just starting to work out equipment , boots , binding combinations that work . On one end of the spectrum are AT Bindings and boots or Telemark boots and telemark bindings attached to Skiboards .. I have done that and while it is nice and very workable . I personally enjoy the challenge of capitalizing on the unique features of skiboards , and skiboard bindings and making them work in the backcountry rather then attaching ski or telemark ski bindings to skiboards. I think the two great solutions that have been worked out is adapting non release skiboard bindings to tour with hard boots and using the Rocker soft boot skiboarding binding . Folks have toured on the hardboot skiboard bindings with AT Boots, Telemark boots , and Hard Shell Snowboard boots .. it is a great solution . For me personally , I really enjoy the soft snowboard set up I am using now ... It is really very different from using Splitboards. Splitboards are much bigger and heavier then skiboards . I have basically a snowshoe type set up that is much lighter over all then AT , Telemark , or Splitboard set ups much shorter , and easier to climb in . This is true whether I was using a non release touring set up with hardboots or my current snowboard boot set up .. Both ways work equally well . I just prefer the nice comfort and feel of climbing and riding in soft snowboard boots vs hardboots. So for me it is a no brainer .. and the issues that Rudi Belinger brings up concerning hardboots and soft boots on snowboard splitboards don't I think really apply to the much shorter and lighter skiboard realm .
    Boards :
    Blunt Xl, DLP, Spliff, Condor, Rockered Condor , Slingshot, Sherpa, Icelantic Shaman
    Boots
    K2 BFC 100 Grip walk sole , Dynafit CR Radical AT boot, Ride Insano Snowboard boots
    Bindings:
    Zero Pro Non release Binding
    Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
    Spruce Riser with Attack 14 GW /AT binding
    Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)
    Rocker and Sbol Soft Boot Bindings.

    Comment


    • #3
      Very interesting topic, I have battled foot issues for the past few years and finally made the switch to a soft boot setup last month. Right now I am riding revlot trees with the receptor risers and a traditional snowboard binding that I have added a top strap to. I was shocked at how well the skiboards perform despite using snowboard boots and bindings. I have just finished up making a heel lift to put in my bindings to use for touring. I have lots of experience touring with hard boots, but I am eagerly waiting to do some touring with a soft boot setup. So far, I have been not only surprised, but extremely happy with the comfort and the performance of a soft boot setup. This is by far the most comfortable setup I have ever owned and I am encouraged with all that I have read on this forum about touring with soft boots!

      Comment


      • #4
        I completely understand what you guys are saying. Right now, the most comfortable option is a softboot set up. If I had been a little more careful, I would have one now as well. My ski boots are some of the softest you can get; they only have half of a shell and are similar in stiffness to a stiff snowboard boot (at lest the ones I have put my foot in). The top of the back is still too stiff for me, something that even the stiffest soft boots don't seem to have. And guess what, I still hate them!

        In regards to the article, I was thinking that, as backcountry skiboarding equipment evolves, would the ideal set up be something with the stifness and lightness of a 3 buckle ski mountaineering boot and comfort of a softboot? I can tell you, the weight of my boots disgusts me. I'm a weight weenie at heart, coming from cycling. My road bike shoes are barely suitable for paper weights! Obviously, this all comes at a cost. The stuff these guys mention cost as much as a few sets of skiboards.

        Jjue has the most experience with this stuff, so I certainly respect his opinion. What do you guys think: If we had the R&D at our disposal, would uture improvement be focused on optimizing a softboot/rocker binding style set up, or and ultralight, low profile hardboot set up? Cycling shoes and inline skate boots have moved towards using moldable, ultralight materials to provide extreme comfort and optimal power transfer, giving the user the ability to resist fatigue and soreness much better.

        Note: Theres a huge difference between a "normal" AT boot and something like this http://www.pierregignoux.fr/France/XpCompetition.php (don't ask me what the price is, I don't know other than it must be ungodly)

        Comment


        • #5
          Having been to the EU recently, I will tell you that is over $1,700.00!

          Might as well get the carbon fiber Apex boot.

          I was kicking around some ideas specific to touring and though that a Rocker binding with a "rocker" plate underneath would be pretty slick. Perhaps some sort of lynch pin to lock it in riding mode and you pull the pin near the heal so it pivots on the toe hinge.

          I was thinking it could be done, just not sure how feasible that would be. That way you don't need to unstrap any buckles or anything, just pull the pin and slide/hike your way up... put the pin back in and you are ready to head back down.

          I have also been toying around with the idea of combining a snowboard binding into a releasable setup. I know that Scribbler has gone a different route, but I have something different in mind.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by cyborg View Post
            . What do you guys think: If we had the R&D at our disposal, would uture improvement be focused on optimizing a softboot/rocker binding style set up, or and ultralight, low profile hardboot set up? Cycling shoes and inline skate boots have moved towards using moldable, ultralight materials to provide extreme comfort and optimal power transfer, giving the user the ability to resist fatigue and soreness much better.
            )
            I think either routes are great and both are worthy of exploration
            Boards :
            Blunt Xl, DLP, Spliff, Condor, Rockered Condor , Slingshot, Sherpa, Icelantic Shaman
            Boots
            K2 BFC 100 Grip walk sole , Dynafit CR Radical AT boot, Ride Insano Snowboard boots
            Bindings:
            Zero Pro Non release Binding
            Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
            Spruce Riser with Attack 14 GW /AT binding
            Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)
            Rocker and Sbol Soft Boot Bindings.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by bbryanblr View Post

              I was kicking around some ideas specific to touring and though that a Rocker binding with a "rocker" plate underneath would be pretty slick. Perhaps some sort of lynch pin to lock it in riding mode and you pull the pin near the heal so it pivots on the toe hinge.

              I was thinking it could be done, just not sure how feasible that would be. That way you don't need to unstrap any buckles or anything, just pull the pin and slide/hike your way up... put the pin back in and you are ready to head back down.

              .
              This is a great idea , kind of like a splitboard set up but without the need to put a snowboard back together .
              you might need to lock both the back of the plate and the front out just locking out the front might not be strong enough
              because the RC Rocker binding set up is so light weight though , I found that I did not need a free pivoting set up and the strap issues is not that much of a hassel . also I have more forefoot hold down then a free pivot which is nice on icy traverses with crampons ..
              Boards :
              Blunt Xl, DLP, Spliff, Condor, Rockered Condor , Slingshot, Sherpa, Icelantic Shaman
              Boots
              K2 BFC 100 Grip walk sole , Dynafit CR Radical AT boot, Ride Insano Snowboard boots
              Bindings:
              Zero Pro Non release Binding
              Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
              Spruce Riser with Attack 14 GW /AT binding
              Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)
              Rocker and Sbol Soft Boot Bindings.

              Comment


              • #8
                Here are the bindings that made me think of it. I saw (and demo'd) a pair of Karakoram's in Jackshon Hole last year. This was in beta at the time but I felt like it was a game changer. I don't know that I could part with 800.00 for a set of ultralight, indestructible, badd arse bindings like this but the heel lock down is awesome and easy to engage/disengage.

                http://www.splitboardbindings.com/pr...wn-technology/

                Have you seen these before jjue?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by bbryanblr View Post
                  Here are the bindings that made me think of it. I saw (and demo'd) a pair of Karakoram's in Jackshon Hole last year. This was in beta at the time but I felt like it was a game changer. I don't know that I could part with 800.00 for a set of ultralight, indestructible, badd arse bindings like this but the heel lock down is awesome and easy to engage/disengage.

                  http://www.splitboardbindings.com/pr...wn-technology/

                  Have you seen these before jjue?
                  Very nice... my son is a splitboarder and the ability to lock down the heel would be huge for travelling about in ski mode .
                  the free pivot , lack of a third strap and soft torsional rigidity of split boards make them pretty dicey sometimes for traversing and side hill climbing .
                  as for skiboarding , certainly something like this would be very nice ...
                  I have not put a lot of thought or effort into trying to design something like this because the stock Rocker binding works so well for me ... I just tighten down that front strap and I can can traverse and side step real well , loosen it a little bit and I have more of a free heel .. the thing that makes a free pivot less necessary for skiboarding is the small light weight nature of the boards. ...
                  Boards :
                  Blunt Xl, DLP, Spliff, Condor, Rockered Condor , Slingshot, Sherpa, Icelantic Shaman
                  Boots
                  K2 BFC 100 Grip walk sole , Dynafit CR Radical AT boot, Ride Insano Snowboard boots
                  Bindings:
                  Zero Pro Non release Binding
                  Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
                  Spruce Riser with Attack 14 GW /AT binding
                  Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)
                  Rocker and Sbol Soft Boot Bindings.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't know if you were implying it or not but the splitboard bindings are not really stable for downhill efforts. The system is slick and it makes good for skating and for some small flat areas, but it is not robust enough for a true downhill on skiboards. I think there is room here for something, and one day I will come up with it, but right now, good enough is good enough.

                    I am set to go back to JH in march (or Germany if I get there on business) and am anxious to try out my new skiboards and my splitboard in some nice snow. Jackson has over 22 feet this year... but Germany is... well, Germany.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      jjue... In doing some research, I came across this little gem. Not sure I like the styling on it but I love the concept. Some engineering student out of New Zealand came up with the idea and I am a fan!

                      http://bestawards.co.nz/entries/product/duotrek/

                      Check it out... and let me know your thoughts. I really like how the highback is part of the boot and not the binding.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bbryanblr View Post
                        jjue... In doing some research, I came across this little gem. Not sure I like the styling on it but I love the concept. Some engineering student out of New Zealand came up with the idea and I am a fan!

                        http://bestawards.co.nz/entries/product/duotrek/

                        Check it out... and let me know your thoughts. I really like how the highback is part of the boot and not the binding.
                        Nice system , the biggest issue is the lateral stability for skiboarding ... I am not sure there is enough lateral stability
                        basically the way the Rocker binding is an exoskeleton for the soft boot and the three heavy straps , highback with wings provide a lot of lateral stability for skiing which is not necessary for snowboarding .
                        Boards :
                        Blunt Xl, DLP, Spliff, Condor, Rockered Condor , Slingshot, Sherpa, Icelantic Shaman
                        Boots
                        K2 BFC 100 Grip walk sole , Dynafit CR Radical AT boot, Ride Insano Snowboard boots
                        Bindings:
                        Zero Pro Non release Binding
                        Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
                        Spruce Riser with Attack 14 GW /AT binding
                        Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)
                        Rocker and Sbol Soft Boot Bindings.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I really like that heel lock design. The telemarkers now have touring bindings (like the Voile Ascent bindings), and I know certain AT bindings are similar, that basically do what I would want our non-release bindings to do - pretty much the entire binding pivots, attached to the boot, and then locks down. If we could lighten up a Zero or Revel8 binding, and put it on a simple pivot mechanism with a lock, that could work.

                          I think with softboots, because the binding is what gives you all the support, you would still want a system that lets the boot free of all the support features... right? Basically a simple optimization of the way jjue is using them. Or would it be better to have the support while climbing, for power transfer?

                          One thing we have to remember is that development occurs where the money is - I realized that most telemark set ups are caveman compared to the technology in AT skis. Obviously, that technology has trickled down, but it starts where the products can be sold to fuel the r&d. Bont, who used to make only inline and ice skates, started making cycling shoes awhile back. They put their r&d into their cycling shoes, and left their skates alone for a few years. All of their high tech development went into the shoes, and not the skate boots, which was surprising for a committed skate company. After a tour de france 1st and 2nd last year, several olympic medals and great reception by the cycling industry, they turned around and introduced their highest tech features to their ice and inline products. Clearly, they wouldn't have been able to make enough money to fund the development if they had tried to do it the other way around.

                          So I think that we will have to ride the wave of the snowboarders and skiers and maybe end up going the direction that their products take us. That's not to say we shouldn't experiment in our garages...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            OK... SO I have another gem for you! I was talking with a buddy of mine who really only does BC stuff and mostly on his splitboard setup (same as mine by the way). We are meeting up in Snowshoe WV in a few weeks and he was telling me about his newest venture which is from a company called MTN Approach. They are taking a much different angle on BC boarding. The reason it came up was that I was telling him about skiboards and said that I hope to have mine ready to rock in Snowshoe with him.

                            After I described the Revolt Chickens to him, he said "that sounds like a shorter version of my MTN Approach breakdowns". I just kind of stared off into space because I had no sense of what those 4 words really meant. This being the internet generation, I sent him a link to the SBOL site with the Chickens... and he sent me this: http://www.blistergearreview.com/gea...pproach-system

                            Basically this "snowboard BC solution" consists of not a splitboard but two skis that breakdown at the top of the hill and you put them in a special backpack that comes with them. Meanwhile while you are skinning up, you have your resort board on your back. I was in awe before I ever laid eyes on them!! I had to have them, I needed to order them immediately... then I saw the price point of $800.00 and I was deflated. After a bit of moping, I came to the conclusion that I had far more than that into my split and tried to justify selling it and get this to ride with my cushy resort board de jour (Forum Bully). Anyone want to buy a really nice split board?

                            I think this is an awesome progression to the BC mentality.... but then I started thinking, why can't i just do that with skins on my Chickens (or any other wide plank) and the answer is "why not?" Basically Jack (jjue) has done that. He isn't carrying a board with him but he is doing this right now at a much lower price point than 800 bucks.

                            Short story is... I still want them (both my Chickens and this MTN Approach setup) and get rid of my Arbor Abacus... but I don't think the wife will allow it... not even on Valentines day...

                            Just wanted to share with folks interested in progressive BC efforts. I think this one is really cool and as soon as I have my boards, I plan on doing something similar... just not with permanantly attached skins!

                            Check out the video in the link

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bbryanblr View Post
                              Basically Jack (jjue) has done that. He isn't carrying a board with him ......
                              LOL .. Actually , how I got into skiboarding ... is that I used skiboards as approach skis for carrying a solid board on my back (teleboard - telemark monoboard) in the backcountry... then I realized that I could just ditch the monkey on my back and have just as much fun skiing downhill on the approach skiboards. Those are Rvl*8 ALP 110 on my feet with skins ...
                              Boards :
                              Blunt Xl, DLP, Spliff, Condor, Rockered Condor , Slingshot, Sherpa, Icelantic Shaman
                              Boots
                              K2 BFC 100 Grip walk sole , Dynafit CR Radical AT boot, Ride Insano Snowboard boots
                              Bindings:
                              Zero Pro Non release Binding
                              Modified Receptor Backcountry Bindings (Bill Version and Slow Version)
                              Spruce Riser with Attack 14 GW /AT binding
                              Custom Risers with Fritschi Backcountry Bindings (Jeff Singer version 1, Bill version)
                              Rocker and Sbol Soft Boot Bindings.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X