I visited The Dark Side today.

[Bad Wolf]

, I have highlighted the one bit I would say "yes and no" about - R&D in skiboarding. I realize it is a niche sport but the R&D I think falls short. Many designs are variations on a theme - e.g., zero camber and rocker.

You don't have to go back too far to see when the sport, and the forum, was dominated by inline skaters and park riders. The product line of stiff, cambered, sidewall construction, short boards suited them perfectly. The Condors, DLPs, ALPs, BWPs, Revolts, KTPs, Slapdashes, Tanshos and Bantams all fit this mold. The one exception maybe being the slimmer Rumpspringa, but those are a close match in profile to the MNPs anyway. Since then it seems that more and more skiers have "hijacked" skiboards for their fun and ease of use. I think the RCs, then the Blunts and now the XLs, are great examples of trying to make skiboards more skier friendly and more versatile. At the same time Spruce has provided longer boards with a more ski like feeling.

So far zero camber has been the trend, but I feel that more design variability is on the way. The forum is not shy about asking for what they want, and Greco and Jeff seem to listen.

Also, we need direct mount release binding designs.

I agree, and this may be the key to truly expanding the sport. A quality direct fix binding would do wonders for attracting more skiers to skiboarding. A demo style binding would also open up the opportunity for demo skiboards. This, I feel, is long overdue.

And - it has to be a direct mounted binding that actually stays mounted to the boards unlike the direct mounted Summits.

To be fair to Summit, I have only ever heard of ONE incidence where a member here reported a problem with his heel piece pulling out of his Marauders. I owned a pair of Summit Customs with direct fix bindings and never had any issues. I eventually took them off to use the 4x4 inserts and believe me, they were in for good. I don't think it's fair to characterize Summit this way without any further evidence.

We also need boards that have a higher level of quality out of the manufacturing presses. No more convex bases. No more variability in base and side edge angles. High quality boards that meet the specs every time. Maybe it can't be done at the current price points. Maybe it can. Look at what Jason Levinthal has done with J's Skis. I have not seen them in person but what I have seen online makes me think they are quality skis. He has them built by Utopie in Quebec, Canada. High quality materials. For niche players skis the prices are competitive.

I am getting tired of the edge damage that happens to sidewall constructed skiboards, Summit and Revel8. The wider boards like my Blunts are really torn up. My XLs are destroyed I have had a little trouble with sidewall and base variance, but to give credit to Greco and Jeff, they always address issues like this with their excellent customer service. I have a feeling that quality goes up with volume and price.

It's a shame that cap construction gets a bad rap. All our capped boards, the Fischers, Jades and 120s are in far better condition, after several seasons of use, than the sidewall boards after just a few days of use. I would like to see more durability in our skiboards.

[Bad Wolf]

I don't even like going through the woods on Sherpas anymore... not enough fore/aft stability for my taste.

I'm definitely with you there. Coming up from the really short Blunts and Jades I found enough stability in the 120s. For now I can't imagine going longer, I'm still adjusting to the heavier feel and sluggish turns. Besides, like Jack said, I don't want to make it too easy

[Wookie]

Wow. A lot of stuff going on in this thread. I could type a book on my feelings on all of it but that wouldn't ever get published so here are some thoughts on some key things:

Quality of today's skiboards: I think they are on par or better than similarly priced skis. Do sidewall construction skiboards get chipped up? YES. But my daughter's sidewall park skis are just as beat up as my Revolts. Do boards occasionally need a grind or tune when new? YES. But again this is the same as skis. My neighbor rides a pair on Line Prophets and tells me they were convex and needed a grind the day he bought them. My local shop throws in a base grind with every new ski purchase just because of this. For me I have had Jeff email me and say he was not happy with a pair of boards he was sending me and ask if was okay to delay the shipment so he could tune them .... you ain't getting that service from K2 or Salomon.

Direct mount bindings: Um No. Or to better express my feelings HELL NO! What makes skiboarding so affordable is the demountable bindings. Further for us large footed riders the ability it have more board flex under foot is key to great performance. I have a pair of great quality 101cm skiboards with direct mounted bindings ... THEY SUCK! They are like riding bricks. No life, no dampening, no pop. Direct mount works for skis where you are only pinning a small percentage of the running length but it is ugly on skiboards. Can the riser system be improved? Sure. Lighter and closer to the board would be nice.

Tree skiing/skiboarding: Can you "long ski" in the tight trees without sacrificing maneuverability ? YES but you can also drive a Cadillac on a go kart track. Tree skiboarding is just a different experience, not better, not worse just different. What you lose in fore/aft support you gain in being able to throw your boards around, work them independently, and get them sideways in tight spots. Being someone who skiboards glades with skiers what I notice is they have to commit to a line and then ski it to a break. I can improvise more and break anywhere. I also seem to find untracked snow where skiers either couldn't get to or didn't want to get to.

Going to skis to find something that skiboards lack: I think a lot of today's skiboarders fall into two camps (with slight variations on the themes). Different from the early days when it was more dominated by aggressive inline skaters.

CAMP A - Frustrated skiers who never could progress on long sticks. They find skiboards and work on technique, drills, have fun on skiboards and all the while they are learning to ski. As they progress they find something lacking and then look to the equipment to fill the hole. For some they never look back and go to skis, others come back, and some do both. It's all good but in their journey skiboards were always, consciously or subconsciously, a means to and end .... riding long skis.

CAMP B - Riders with a skating background. For these riders skiing never worked because they are not programed to use their feet/legs in unison. I see myself in this camp and likely never to switch to skis (I may be wrong but that's where I am today). These riders care not for technique and are using skiboards as a life hack to get on the mountain. They are like golfers that one day say "Screw this!" and pick up the ball and throw it and never use clubs again.

[mrs. sempai]

Progression expected:

120 > Sherpas > 165cm all mountain skis with generous tip and tail rocker and camber underfoot.

The ski zombie virus has been unleashed on the forum and it is now an epidemic….

Sorry Bluewing...but this is all crazy talk to me.... "Shorties for life"

[Wookie]

Sorry Bluewing...but this is all crazy talk to me.... "Shorty's for life"

Amen!

[sempai]

Tree skiing/skiboarding: What you lose in fore/aft support you gain in being able to throw your boards around, work them independently, and get them sideways in tight spots. Being someone who skiboards glades with skiers what I notice is they have to commit to a line and then ski it to a break. I can improvise more and break anywhere. I also seem to find untracked snow where skiers either couldn't get to or didn't want to get to.

I agree. I find untouched powder in the trees days after a storm because it's in tight spots that skiers couldn't get into.

[Bad Wolf]

Modern ski design has progressed to the point that it really is like skiboarding but on a more stable format , more stable in crud and slush , and variable pow and at speed and yet very easy turning and responsive . Longboards make skiboarding easier in big mountain variable conditions , and long skis make it easier yet .. the progression Bluewing talks about is a reality . But somewhere along that progression , there may be a coming back, a return to roots.... It happened to me .... Like Valmorel I was an expert skiier who found that skis made it too easy , I realized that to get my adrenalin fix , I would probably have to kill myself .. going too fast , going too steep , going too big .. then I found Telemark skiing ... telemark skiing made me a beginner again , getting good at it was fun and it made slopes that were boring on my regular skis fun and exciting once more , it also introduced me to a community where I found a home , I got to be very good at it .. .... Later I found skiiboarding which was even more fun then telemark skiing and even a smaller niche sport and community ... Research and development in our sport has been fantastic and has allowed me to ski all mountain on shorter and shorter boards , and even changing over to soft snowboard boots and weird soft boot bindings... it is not easier then skiing at all , at the big mountain level it is definitely harder
and more difficult , , but what is a miracle is that the tiny gear is just enough , and the challenge to take that gear to the max is absolutely fantastic ... Skiboarding is magic to me .... tomorrow .. I am going to skin up Alpine meadows which has closed for the season with my buddies ... I will be on my Blunt Xls and snowboard boots for their maiden backcountry voyage ..I am thrilled ..!

This thread has made me evaluate what it is I really want out of winter sports. After learning how to play golf with all the modern equipment, I became a minimalist in and often play with just two clubs and a putter. It forces you to be imaginative and create shots instead of relying on your equipment. Despite the apparent disadvantage, I often score lower with less clubs than with more. I think it's because it forces you to approach the game in a different way and be reliant on your own skills. Using modern equipment makes the game easier, but not so satisfying. This didn't happen overnight, it took several years to acquire the skills to play without the benefit of game enhancing equipment. Now that I'm there, I can't imagine playing any other way.

I want my time on the slopes to be the same. My ultimate goal would to be able to handle any terrain and any conditions on a 100 cm skiboard with non release bindings. Light to carry, simple to use, easy to transport, affordable and with the satisfaction of achieving a lot with a little. So, whatever equipment changes I make will always be with the intention of gaining the skills and confidence to eventually simplify.

[valmorel]

This thread has made me evaluate what it is I really want out of winter sports. After learning how to play golf with all the modern equipment, I became a minimalist in and often play with just two clubs and a putter. It forces you to be imaginative and create shots instead of relying on your equipment. Despite the apparent disadvantage, I often score lower with less clubs than with more. I think it's because it forces you to approach the game in a different way and be reliant on your own skills. Using modern equipment makes the game easier, but not so satisfying. This didn't happen overnight, it took several years to acquire the skills to play without the benefit of game enhancing equipment. Now that I'm there, I can't imagine playing any other way.

I want my time on the slopes to be the same. My ultimate goal would to be able to handle any terrain and any conditions on a 100 cm skiboard with non release bindings. Light to carry, simple to use, easy to transport, affordable and with the satisfaction of achieving a lot with a little. So, whatever equipment changes I make will always be with the intention of gaining the skills and confidence to eventually simplify.

I ride a single speed bike for the exact same reason. Light, elegant, silent. When I am riding it, all my concentration is on how my body is performing, not on how the bike is performing. A different mindset. The bike is still cutting edge, just without the distracting clutter.

[Ukuvox]

I ride a single speed bike for the exact same reason. Light, elegant, silent. When I am riding it, all my concentration is on how my body is performing, not on how the bike is performing. A different mindset. The bike is still cutting edge, just without the distracting clutter.

This. This (and Bad Wolf's post as well) sums up my approach to so many things. On the trails, I've been asked *cough*hassled*cough*, usually by the hardcore spandex crowd, why I ride a Trikke instead of getting a "real" bike. It's a very simple machine; no pedals, chains, gears. It's about as minimalist as you can get while being faster, less painful, and more fun than running. Pure simplicity.

The snow version of the Trikke (the Skki) helped me realize my nearly 30 year dream and got me on the slopes. Although it's also uncomplicated, it's far bulkier than just about anything else on the mountain and I think it might be coming between me and a more "pure" feeling. Time to simplify once more. Which brings me to skiboards...

[Bad Wolf]

I ride a single speed bike for the exact same reason. Light, elegant, silent. When I am riding it, all my concentration is on how my body is performing, not on how the bike is performing. A different mindset. The bike is still cutting edge, just without the distracting clutter.

This. This (and Bad Wolf's post as well) sums up my approach to so many things. On the trails, I've been asked *cough*hassled*cough*, usually by the hardcore spandex crowd, why I ride a Trikke instead of getting a "real" bike. It's a very simple machine; no pedals, chains, gears. It's about as minimalist as you can get while being faster, less painful, and more fun than running. Pure simplicity.

The snow version of the Trikke (the Skki) helped me realize my nearly 30 year dream and got me on the slopes. Although it's also uncomplicated, it's far bulkier than just about anything else on the mountain and I think it might be coming between me and a more "pure" feeling. Time to simplify once more. Which brings me to skiboards...

Less is sometimes more.

[Fun Machine]

My dilemma going forward will be that I want to skiboard and ski both. I sold off a bunch of boards this season trying to simplify my choices. Now after skiing today, I want to buy skis. I'm even thinking about the Spruce longboards again. I really liked having the added stability and speed today. I love my shorties, but I have to admit that they take a toll on my aging body. They're great on nice snow, but in variable junk they wear me out and make my body ache.

Oh, one thing I didn't mention about today is that I really enjoyed not feeling like an outcast. I had no questions to answer or derogatory remarks to endure. It was nice!

P.S. Bluewing, I get it now.

LOL. Welcome to the Dark Side. I am a life long skier who ventured into ski blades early on when accompanying beginners on the slopes. I loved those blades and am really impressed by the new modern Rvl8 boards I recently bought, but I can't imagine giving up my long skis. Skis are not skiboards, and skiboards are not skis. At least based on my experience with blades (and so far holding true with skiboards), the required skills to ride them at advanced levels can diverge significantly from skis depending on terrain, conditions, style and speed. I pick and choose depending on the circumstances and goals for any given day - skiboards for playful, skis for graceful. And when my aging body gets tired, I usually find myself on skis just ziplining down the mountain with minimal pressure movements to slalom around the "obstacles" because it's just rock stable and effortless.

[Bill]

CAMP B[/U] - Riders with a skating background. For these riders skiing never worked because they are not programed to use their feet/legs in unison. I see myself in this camp and likely never to switch to skis (I may be wrong but that's where I am today). These riders care not for technique and are using skiboards as a life hack to get on the mountain. They are like golfers that one day say "Screw this!" and pick up the ball and throw it and never use clubs again.[/INDENT]

Everyone's different, and there's some mystery to individual equipment preferences that doesn't necessarily need to be solved. As an equipment junkie I can't help myself, along the way I've not only tried out every skiboard & longboard variation but all sorts of skis including many of the new exotic rocker types. Personally, I always circle back to skiboards, more specifically longboard skiboards and more specific yet the Spruce 120. It's a recurring theme. No doubt it's some combination of rebelliousness, minimalist appeal (as Valmorel and others describe very well), and more than anything else fitting pretty squarely into Wookie's Camp B.

The positive thing about riding/skiing both is that you know for sure. It's like Mom said, how do you know you don't like spinach if you won't try it? Not all, but a certain number of folks are going to try it and like it, which is only healthy (ask Popeye). If no skiboarder ever skied, it would be disingenuous to endorse skiboards.

[sempai]

Hmm...The season is approaching. Do I continue skiboarding, or do I venture further into the realm of skiing???...Decisions, decisions, decisions...

[Wookie]

Hmm...The season is approaching. Do I continue skiboarding, or do I venture further into the realm of skiing???...Decisions, decisions, decisions...

Blasphemy!

Don't make me fly out there with my Father Lankester Merrin DIY home exorcism kit ....

"Be Gone Long Plank Demon ...."
"The Power of Skiboards Compels You!"
"The Power of Skiboards Compels You!"
"The Power of Skiboards Compels You!"
"The Power of Skiboards Compels You!"


BTW .... I have pair of Line Prophets temporarily in my quiver. Holding a pair for a friend that is doing some long term "government sponsored" traveling. Maybe I'll try them out this season??

[sempai]

BTW .... I have pair of Line Prophets temporarily in my quiver. Holding a pair for a friend that is doing some long term "government sponsored" traveling. Maybe I'll try them out this season??

You should. Then maybe you too will turn to the dark side.